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10-05-2015, 09:20 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by gofour3 Quote
Not colour but b&w, but still gives you an idea what 35mm film still can achieve. From the Adox web site:

ADOX CMS 20 135/36 35mm 36 Exposure:

No film is sharper, no film has finer grain or higher resolution (up to 800 L / mm at highest contrast. When developed in CMS 20 developer, it has an ASA rating of 20. In practical pictorial usage with normal image contrast it can be used at up to 25 ASA.


In a standard developer (i.e. HC 110) it has approximately ASA 6 for pictorial usage. Nearly grain-free enlargements can be made up to an image size of 2.5 meter diagonal. This is roughly equivalent to a 500 megapixel resolution. For comparison: a 12 Megapixel digital camera has only 2,4% as much resolution as this film.


Phil.
FWIW, this 85.2-megapixel, 8000-ppi scan shows considerable grain:

http://www.adox.de/Media/cms20test.jpg

10-05-2015, 12:33 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by dsmithhfx Quote
In a standard developer (i.e. HC 110) it has approximately ASA 6 for pictorial usage.
Sunny sixteen probably wants 1/4 second to avoid underexposure, so you're down to f/4.0 in bright sunlight just to have a half-decent chance of avoiding camera shake!

---------- Post added 05-10-15 at 17:05 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by dsmithhfx Quote
FWIW, this 85.2-megapixel, 8000-ppi scan shows considerable grain:
Only if you pixel-peep, and even then it doesn't detract from the image.
10-05-2015, 01:05 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Only if you pixel-peep, and even then it doesn't detract from the image.
Maybe not, but the marketing hyperbole cited is likely irrelevant in real-world applications.
10-05-2015, 01:11 PM - 1 Like   #154
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Replying to the OP...

If someone (Pentax, Nikon, etc.) were to build a new film camera, here's what I'd love to see.

Autofocus 35mm SLR with built in live view. If you took a camera like the MZ-S or Minolta Alpha 7 and added Sony's live view from the Sony A-350 you'd have digital live view in a film SLR. Add a tilting LCD and you have an autofocus film SLR with a useable WLF.

10-05-2015, 01:23 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Swift1 Quote
Replying to the OP...

If someone (Pentax, Nikon, etc.) were to build a new film camera, here's what I'd love to see.

Autofocus 35mm SLR with built in live view. If you took a camera like the MZ-S or Minolta Alpha 7 and added Sony's live view from the Sony A-350 you'd have digital live view in a film SLR. Add a tilting LCD and you have an autofocus film SLR with a useable WLF.
Sure - but how do you have live view without a sensor in the path of the film?
10-05-2015, 01:43 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Sure - but how do you have live view without a sensor in the path of the film?
Sony's A-350 live view works from a small secondary sensor in the prism housing. When live view is turned off, the mirror is in it's normal position and the viewfinder works as a normal OVF. When live view is turned on, the mirror shifts slightly and the light is redirected through the prism onto a small sensor.
10-05-2015, 05:40 PM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by chickentender Quote
I've had visions of an S2 in my brain
We don't want to go there...


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10-05-2015, 05:43 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by gofour3 Quote
In a standard developer (i.e. HC 110) it has approximately ASA 6 for pictorial usage. Nearly grain-free enlargements can be made up to an image size of 2.5 meter diagonal. This is roughly equivalent to a 500 megapixel resolution. For comparison: a 12 Megapixel digital camera has only 2,4% as much resolution as this film.
Assuming you have the lens to back it up!!!

Aye...there's the rub...

Still though, it is supposed to be quite excellent film if you are good with the long exposures.


Steve

10-05-2015, 05:54 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by dsmithhfx Quote
FWIW, this 85.2-megapixel, 8000-ppi scan shows considerable grain:

http://www.adox.de/Media/cms20test.jpg
Grain and resolution are independent of each other, though the former does detract from the latter. At full resolution with 8000 dpi scan (the download), the grain in the example is incredibly fine by historic and current standards. That being said, where CMS 20 really shines is with medium and large format media where the grain essentially becomes irrelevant.


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10-05-2015, 07:35 PM - 1 Like   #160
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In any case, I just don't know that I could call the grain in that CMS20 example "considerable". It is "apparent" at a 100% crop, but it isn't what I see/notice by any means in the full image.
Sensia-400... that has considerable grain.
10-06-2015, 01:40 AM   #161
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I think we must remember that film is designed for physical printing first and foremost. So I find it hard to judge the quality of any film by how they come out scanned.

Back on the main topic.
The problem with getting a new film camera out there is the massive amount of cheap stuff on the used market. simple slrs got for nothing now a days. So pricing of any new camera is already to high for the film hobbyist. Most pros already have a camera they would not replace or are shooting medium or large format. So it is just off putting for most people. So I don't really see many new 35mm film cameras in the future.
10-06-2015, 02:30 AM   #162
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QuoteQuote:
This is roughly equivalent to a 500 megapixel resolution
Um... No.

---------- Post added 10-06-15 at 02:36 AM ----------

I don't have a problem with grain. It's one of the reasons I generally prefer film. The desire to turn resolution into a film vs digital pissing contest is silly and invidious -- and film has already lost anyway.

Last edited by dsmithhfx; 10-06-2015 at 02:41 AM.
10-06-2015, 03:47 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by dsmithhfx Quote
The desire to turn resolution into a film vs digital pissing contest is silly and invidious -- and film has already lost anyway.
Can we take that statement in bold as one last dribble of piss in the bucket?

There is no doubt that digital wins hands-down in terms of ease and speed of availability & transmission of images, and compactness of storage. There is also no doubt that provided the medium remains intact, film probably has the better longevity. Build a big enough sensor with a good enough lens in front, and no, I don't think film can compete in the long run. But it still has its place in the hands of enthusiasts and possibly some specialised industrial or scientific applications and it is still far more "doable" if, God forbid, we should ever revert to a low-tech future.
10-06-2015, 06:43 AM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Can we take that statement in bold as one last dribble of piss in the bucket?
No you may not. It's a simple statement of fact: that ship has sailed.

I dislike the soulless mechanical perfection apparent in so many digital images, it's something that just doesn't interest me. As for film, I don't even care about resolution. That's why I use, and have always used 35mm, rather than larger formats (apart from a brief dalliance with a TLR). It's a limitation and affordance that I readily accept in my personal work. At the same time, I can appreciate and marvel at large format and high res work in both film and digital.

If I could get a digital full frame 'back' that would replicate my experience of using a 1970s -era mechanical slr (without film), for the same money, I probably would (I also have an aversion to plastic, and stuff that's obsolete in months, so there's that).
10-06-2015, 07:44 AM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by dsmithhfx Quote
If I could get a digital full frame 'back' that would replicate my experience of using a 1970s -era mechanical slr (without film), for the same money, I probably would (I also have an aversion to plastic, and stuff that's obsolete in months, so there's that).
Yep. Or preferably something that I put inside which captured the image and put it on a micro SD card for removal and later viewing on a computer. I would go for that in a heartbeat.
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