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06-07-2016, 03:36 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
What do think? Will I be able to get this rig setup and scan negatives with one of my Crop or Full Frame cameras?

I should add I purchased them from a seller here on PF. I didn't see a picture ( The ones I got are from an ebay seller, but the description says that they look like they never have been used.

With a K1, FF body and a 50~58mm lens, you should be able to scan a full 35mm chrome. With an APS-C body, you will only be able to scan the central region of a chrome. As I posted above, I tried a bellows (the later, improved model) with lenses from 35mm to 100mm and an APS-C body and found it impossible to get full coverage of a 35mm slide when the the latter was mounted in the slide carrier. It can only be done if the slide carrier is not used. Rather, place the slide on some kind of light box or similar back-illumination rig a on a copy-stand set-up. And BTW: You will need to experiment with lighting to get satisfactory color balance, and consider experimenting with HDR to cover the very wide density range that a chrome may have (obviously depends on lighting and subject at the time the chrome was taken).

BTW: The tripod mounting system of this older bellows is a little inconvenient/weak. It is way at the rear, below the where the camera mounts. Does not balance well when the bellows + camera is mounted on a tripod.

06-07-2016, 05:12 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
I made another mistake on my post #12. It's the Asahi Pentax M42 Auto Bellows + the Pentax Slide Copier that I'm getting & not the Asahi Pentax M42 Auto Bellows II. I'm not sure if I'm better off with this or the II. Anyone have any though on the difference between the 2. The one I'm getting from pictures is that it does not have the screw that might get in the way if I use my K-1.

I hope I get all my mistakes done here and make less once I get it.
G, I have the auto bellows 2 in k mount which is essentially the same as for m42. I still needed a short extension tube to mount my camera successfully. The auto bellows 2 is better as it had the x rail as been mentioned before that includes a second rail mounting block that allows the entire setup to be moved in or out, making it easier to pick a focus point on the subject and better balances the system on a tripod thereby reducing camera shake. For doing slide copying just the latest will be important for you.
06-07-2016, 06:11 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
I have two Pentax bellows and the slide copy attachment and have attempted to copy a slide using 35mm, 40mm, 45mm (enlarging lens), 50mm, 70mm, and 100mm (bellows) lenses mounted on the bellows. No go. No way to get 1:1 of a slide with an APS-C sensor camera using a Pentax bellows & slide-copy attachment.
Try the SMC Takumar 28mm f/3.5.

My bellows is an X frame while the slide copier bought separately is the other type, so they don't lock together. I eventually resorted to cannibalising the filter and rubber hood from my late father-in-law's A50/2.0 (the rubber had all degenerated), plus a couple extra skylight filters, and screwing it onto my 35mm Limited Macro, then fitting the slide copier directly to that. That lens can get close enough that with the slight extra spacing, I have full coverage of the film frame. I put the whole lot on a tripod, park my AF540 FGZ-II about six inches in front of it, and let fly. I'm using f/5.6, 1/60 and the flash on manual at about 1/128 power with the wide-angle diffuser active; you will need to adjust your own power levels to suit depending on what flash you have and how you position/trigger it. My flash is connected to the camera by a simple PC sync cord and hotshoe adapter setup which has a tripod mount in its base, and that sits on a teensy tiny tabletop tripod cribbed from a small spotting scope. Not much, but enough to hold the flash steady. I put the camera in live view, SR off, focus manually on the film plane, slide them through, and trigger with a cable release. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Next strip. Continue until complete.
06-07-2016, 06:50 AM   #19
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I found that as focal length got shorter, the minimum magnification using the bellows was too much to get the entire chrome projected onto the APS-C sensor. To project a standard 35mm slide onto a FF sensor, obviously you need a 1:1 ratio = life size reproduction, and the bellows + slide copier is designed to accomplish this.. For an APS-C sensor, you need about a 1.5:1 ratio = about 2/3 life size. If a longer FL lens is on the bellows, even a 50mm lens, and this is moved back to provide the requisite lower than 1X magnification, then the bellows of the slide holding device will not stretch enough to permit focus to be achieved. With the X-frame bellows and devoted slide copy attachment, full coverage of a 35mm slide on an APS-C sensor is not possible with any focal length lens 35mm to 100mm. If it were possible to move the slide farther from the front element of the lens being used on the bellows, slide conversion onto an APS-C sensor could be achieved, but the bellows of the slide holding device cannot stretch that far.. Modifying the rig in some way, well, fiddle until you have the requisite combination, but for that, I could use one of my several macro lenses and a light box of some kind on a copy stand rig, dispensing entirely with the bellows. However the bellows has the advantage of reliable registry of slide and sensor (parallel, centered, correct focal distance maintained), and no light leak between slide and sensor.


Last edited by WPRESTO; 06-07-2016 at 11:08 AM.
06-07-2016, 07:35 AM   #20
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You could always use a dedicated slide copier such as the current Pentax film duplicator (expensive) or a film era one from Spiratone or Soligor. Since the film era duplicators were designed for the 35mm frame you'll have the same problem of not being able to capture the full slide frame.

PENTAX Film Duplicator (with Mount Holder 24x36) - RICOH IMAGING EUROPE S.A.S
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/using-a-slide-duplicator-4813
06-07-2016, 08:35 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
You could always use a dedicated slide copier such as the current Pentax film duplicator (expensive) or a film era one from Spiratone or Soligor. Since the film era duplicators were designed for the 35mm frame you'll have the same problem of not being able to capture the full slide frame.

PENTAX Film Duplicator (with Mount Holder 24x36) - RICOH IMAGING EUROPE S.A.S
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/using-a-slide-duplicator-4813
Interesting device. Does not appear to be available at the moment in the USA. But 799 Euros?? That will pay for a lot of commercial slide-digital conversion, several thousand originals, and they will take care of 95% of the dust.
06-07-2016, 08:52 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Try the SMC Takumar 28mm f/3.5.
I have a Pentax M28mm f/2.8 and wonder if that will fit?

QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
... trigger with a cable release.
I'm not sure if my Bellows has a place for a cable release. What type of Cable are referring to & where might one obtain one.

QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
With a K1, FF body and a 50~58mm lens, you should be able to scan a full 35mm chrome.
I have a number of lens including the following:
Cosina 28mm f/2.8 Macro - Pentax - M 50mm f/1.4 (Also some f/1.7's) & Vivitar 50mm f/1.8 & a SMC Tak 55mm f/2 M42.

QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
BTW: The tripod mounting system of this older bellows is a little inconvenient/weak. It is way at the rear, below the where the camera mounts. Does not balance well when the bellows + camera is mounted on a tripod.
I'm going to bypass the tripod as I have a table which can fit this setup on a permanent basis.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
I still needed a short extension tube to mount my camera successfully.
I have a number of UV filters that I can break the glass out and use them. I've also did a little research and found a number of extension tubes which are very thin.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
You could always use a dedicated slide copier such as the current Pentax film duplicator (expensive) or a film era one from Spiratone or Soligor. Since the film era duplicators were designed for the 35mm frame you'll have the same problem of not being able to capture the full slide frame.

PENTAX Film Duplicator (with Mount Holder 24x36) - RICOH IMAGING EUROPE S.A.S
That's a nice setup, but I would have to hold off on those toys until I have of waiting list for my services.
06-07-2016, 10:51 AM   #23
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A 28mm lens will not work for duplicating the entire slide frame. The minimum extension on all the auto bellows (M42, K, M and A) is 38mm so your reproduction ratio will be slightly more than 1x. You need less than 1x (a focal length greater than 58mm) in order to cover the entire slide as explained by WPRESTO above. The problem with longer lenses is the rails aren't long enough for you to either focus or frame the slide. The problem with shorter lenses is the rails aren't long enough for you get less than 1x magnification.

You can look up the magnification ratios for various lenses in the manuals for the bellows. You can find the manuals online. I'm at work so I don't have them handy.

The Spiratone slide duplicators can be had for under $20 USD on the used market. They use a T-mount. However being made for film they cannot zoom out (less than 1x magnification).

http://www.thecuckoofarm.com/cuckoo/photo/camatt/slidecop/spirvario/spirvario.php


Last edited by Not a Number; 06-07-2016 at 11:02 AM.
06-07-2016, 11:04 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
That's a nice setup, but I would have to hold off on those toys until I have of waiting list for my services.
For 799 Euros (over $900) it should be "nice" and a notch above a "toy."

A comment about dedicated slide copy attachments made in the film era. As the web article posted above notes, these are generally designed for 1:1 reproduction on a FF camera body, film or digital, or for cropping (=enlarging and duplicating the central portion of a standard 35mm slide), and they will not give 1:1 on an APS-C sensor. The other consideration: these "slide-duplicators" were generally inexpensive, with simple optical systems. They might give decent/good IQ, but maybe not. A lens designed to operate at one particular focus distance can give good results even with a very simple optical formula, but I doubt that any of these devices have a lens system that can match the IQ of a modern macro lens. The bellows Takumar short mount 100mm f4 is an old design that cannot match the IQ of newer Pentax macro lenses.

Last edited by WPRESTO; 06-07-2016 at 11:18 AM.
06-07-2016, 11:32 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
I have a Pentax M28mm f/2.8 and wonder if that will fit?
Is your bellows M42, or K-mount? The answer will be no and yes, respectively.

QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
I'm not sure if my Bellows has a place for a cable release. What type of Cable are referring to & where might one obtain one.
I'm using a completely different setup, with an AF macro lens and no bellows at all. It's the camera I'm triggering. Once you've got everything set up, you're shooting at a constant aperture, shutter speed and ISO anyway; if you've got a Takumar lens at the other end of the bellows, just flip it over to manual, stop it down, and LEAVE it stopped down.
06-07-2016, 01:18 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Is your bellows M42, or K-mount? The answer will be no and yes, respectively.

I don't have them yet. I purchased them off of a PF member. (No Pictures) They'll be here next Monday. However, from the description, it's M42 Bellows and M42 Mount. I have M42 Adapters.


I'm using a completely different setup, with an AF macro lens and no bellows at all. It's the camera I'm triggering. Once you've got everything set up, you're shooting at a constant aperture, shutter speed and ISO anyway; if you've got a Takumar lens at the other end of the bellows, just flip it over to manual, stop it down, and LEAVE it stopped down.

I should have done a ton more of research. However, I'm in $150 for the bellows. (I can still use them for Macro Photography) I also have the D FA 100mm F2.8 WR Macro.


Thanks for the answers.

---------- Post added 06-07-16 at 01:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
For 799 Euros (over $900) it should be "nice" and a notch above a "toy."

A comment about dedicated slide copy attachments made in the film era. As the web article posted above notes, these are generally designed for 1:1 reproduction on a FF camera body, film or digital, or for cropping (=enlarging and duplicating the central portion of a standard 35mm slide), and they will not give 1:1 on an APS-C sensor. The other consideration: these "slide-duplicators" were generally inexpensive, with simple optical systems. They might give decent/good IQ, but maybe not. A lens designed to operate at one particular focus distance can give good results even with a very simple optical formula, but I doubt that any of these devices have a lens system that can match the IQ of a modern macro lens. The bellows Takumar short mount 100mm f4 is an old design that cannot match the IQ of newer Pentax macro lenses.
I have the D FA 100mm F2.8 WR Macro and would to be able to use it with this rig along with my K-1. If that's not possible, I'll try some extension tubes, other lens & hack it. If it don't work, I'll use the bellows for Macro work and start over with a little more knowledge going into this endeavor & hobby of mine.

---------- Post added 06-07-16 at 01:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
A 28mm lens will not work for duplicating the entire slide frame. The minimum extension on all the auto bellows (M42, K, M and A) is 38mm so your reproduction ratio will be slightly more than 1x. You need less than 1x (a focal length greater than 58mm) in order to cover the entire slide as explained by WPRESTO above. The problem with longer lenses is the rails aren't long enough for you to either focus or frame the slide. The problem with shorter lenses is the rails aren't long enough for you get less than 1x magnification.

You can look up the magnification ratios for various lenses in the manuals for the bellows. You can find the manuals online. I'm at work so I don't have them handy.

The Spiratone slide duplicators can be had for under $20 USD on the used market. They use a T-mount. However being made for film they cannot zoom out (less than 1x magnification).

Spiratone Vario-Dupliscope
I noticed that in one video from Dave Hamcock he was talking about the SMC Macro-Takumar 100mm F4 Macro. I'm not sure if that's a better lens than my D FA 100mm Macro WR. Any thoughts?
06-07-2016, 09:46 PM   #27
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Ok from the Auto Bellows A manual (the numbers were about the same with the Auto Bellows (M42) manual:

With the 28mm lens (reversed - lenses should be reversed with >1x magnification) - minimum extension 63mm @ 2.6x.

Unless my math is way off (it wouldn't surprise me - math is beyond me most of the time) I figure you need around 0.67x in order to be able to cover the entire slide on a crop sensor. Even though you can get this magnification easily with an 85mm or 100mm lens the problem is the rails are not long enough to allow focus on the slide.

Unless you have the 100mm Macro Bellows lens using a 100mm lens on bellows is very unwieldy. The lens is just too long. And since the lens should be set at infinity for use on bellows you don't gain much as you need 100mm extension just to get 1x magnification.
06-07-2016, 10:30 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by glee46 Quote
I'm not sure if my Bellows has a place for a cable release.
Not needed for basic use and won't work as originally intended. The front standard has an aperture actuator flipper and is threaded to accept one end of the two-ended/two-cable release that came with the bellows. One plunger on the user end and two releases, one screws into the shutter release on the body and the other to the front standard. Since your camera does not accept a mechanical cable release, the special cable is pretty useless, leaving you with the option to use the lens as fully manual aperture.


Steve
06-07-2016, 10:45 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
Unless you have the 100mm Macro Bellows lens using a 100mm lens on bellows is very unwieldy. The lens is just too long. And since the lens should be set at infinity for use on bellows you don't gain much as you need 100mm extension just to get 1x magnification.
I have the D FA 100mm F2.8 WR Macro. ( Another PF member is testing his and will post how that works.) I can purchase a SMC Macro-Takumar 100mm F4 Macro and try that as well. I also plan to have this rig setup on a permanent basis except for when I need my K-1 or K-3ll.

---------- Post added 06-07-16 at 10:56 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Not needed for basic use and won't work as originally intended. The front standard has an aperture actuator flipper and is threaded to accept one end of the two-ended/two-cable release that came with the bellows. One plunger on the user end and two releases, one screws into the shutter release on the body and the other to the front standard. Since your camera does not accept a mechanical cable release, the special cable is pretty useless, leaving you with the option to use the lens as fully manual aperture.


Steve
Wow! That's a mouthful. I remember the days just saying, "Hey take my picture" Good old point & shoot.

I'm learning a lot from you guys & I appreciate it.

Two weeks ago if you would have said words like, "aperture actuator flipper & two-ended/two-cable release, attached to bellows & accept mechanical cable release, I would have been as confused as a baby in a Topless Bar.
06-07-2016, 11:18 PM   #30
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Today I set up my Pentax Bellows II and Slide Copier and attached my K-01 and a Takumar 55/1.8, and then tried DSLR scanning for the first time.
I found that with that lens set to infinity, and with the bellows at minimum extension, and with the slide copier attached, I could get a little more than 3/4" of the 135 frame onto the APS-C frame.
This screenshot shows a full 35mm slide and the maximum "crop" I could get. To get anymore in would require less distance between the lens and the camera sensor.



According to the Pentax Bellows II manual, using the 55/1.8 @inf. and with minimum bellows extension, it should give about 0.66x magnification. I'm a bit confused by this because that should work for getting the entire 35mm frame into the APS-C frame?
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