How to use Auto on the old Super-Takumar Lenses?

Helios 1984 · 11-23-2016, 07:20 AM

I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to voltage changes?

Here's a thread concerning batteries, there is several options: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/8-pentax-film-slr-discussion/135112-asahi...mendation.html

Xmas · 11-23-2016, 08:25 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Helios 84-5

I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to voltage changes?

Here's a thread concerning batteries, there is several options: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/8-pentax-film-slr-discussion/135112-asahi...mendation.html

They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film?

Helios 1984 · 11-23-2016, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Xmas

They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film?

+1

Better safe than sorry.

stevebrot · 11-23-2016, 11:18 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Helios 84-5

I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to

Originally posted by Xmas

They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film?

voltage changes?

Sort of...the circuit is not a complete bridge. I have the circuit schematic somewhere. While generally not sensitive to voltage, the circuit is not fully balanced. As a result, meter response is not linear at low light levels when used with modern silver or alkaline batteries.

Steve

**TomB_tx** · 11-23-2016, 05:19 PM

"Automatic" has sure had a lot of meanings on lenses over the years! Today people expect it to mean auto focus. Before that, with "program" cameras people thought of auto-exposure. Before that, with SLR cameras it was automatic diaphragm stop down, as with the lens here.
Back in 1932-33 Leica promoted the Leica II as the "automatic focusing" camera. That's because the first Leica I had a distance scale on the lens, but no built-in means to judge the distance. You used a separate rangefinder to find and read the distance, then set the lens to the same distance mark. The Leica II built the rangefinder into the camera with a linkage to the lens. You turned the lens focus control until the rangefinder showed the double image merge into one, and then the lens was "automatically" in focus. That was autofocus in 1932.

Helios 1984 · 11-23-2016, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by TomB_tx

"Automatic" has sure had a lot of meanings on lenses over the years! Today people expect it to mean auto focus. Before that, with "program" cameras people thought of auto-exposure. Before that, with SLR cameras it was automatic diaphragm stop down, as with the lens here.
Back in 1932-33 Leica promoted the Leica II as the "automatic focusing" camera. That's because the first Leica I had a distance scale on the lens, but no built-in means to judge the distance. You used a separate rangefinder to find and read the distance, then set the lens to the same distance mark. The Leica II built the rangefinder into the camera with a linkage to the lens. You turned the lens focus control until the rangefinder showed the double image merge into one, and then the lens was "automatically" in focus. That was autofocus in 1932.

Ahh I remember when I figured out the purpose of this pin and that Auto did not meant Auto. For a film user it's obvious but for a Digital user who decide to use vintage lenses, that's like the 4th dimension.

Xmas · 11-24-2016, 12:54 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by stevebrot

Sort of...the circuit is not a complete bridge. I have the circuit schematic somewhere. While generally not sensitive to voltage, the circuit is not fully balanced. As a result, meter response is not linear at low light levels when used with modern silver or alkaline batteries.

Steve

Confirmed: the circuit is a pukka Wheatstone bridge but the meter is at centre at 3 micro amps (current) instead of zero amps, ie unbalanced so if you need 1/3 stop a zinc hearing aid is ok. A silver cell will have a fixed meter offset. An alkaline with variable internal resistance in service variable...

For interest the K1000 'series' use a differential galvanometer so avoid this problem think the very late spots do too. But the photo cells are life time variable so simple testing with two cameras desirable.

stevebrot · 11-24-2016, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Helios 84-5

For a film user it's obvious but for a Digital user who decide to use vintage lenses, that's like the 4th dimension.

Even for film users, it is not obvious unless one was doing photography during the age when having an "auto" aperture was a marketing feature. I have several lenses where "auto" is their first name

Now days, the people most aware of "auto" aperture are those using bellows, simple extension tubes, or adapted lenses where "manual" aperture is the rule.

Unfortunately, use of the words "auto" and "manual" has gotten very sloppy in regards to lenses. On this site we regularly get requests regarding issues with "manual" technique. I am thinking that a "sticky" might be in order with something like...

Regarding lenses:

Almost all SLR lenses support "auto aperture actuation" by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling and some have a switch to allow either "manual" or "auto" aperture
Some of those support "auto aperture control" by the camera body using mechanical and/or electrical coupling. These either lack an aperture ring or have a special "A, P, or AE" position on the aperture ring.
Some of those also support "auto focus control" by the camera body by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling

Regarding bodies:

Almost all SLRs (film and digital) will couple for "auto aperture actuation" with a supporting lens
Some are capable of exposure automation ("auto exposure", Av, Sv, P, etc.) with a supporting lens
Some are capable of coupling to control the aperture from the body ("automated aperture control") with a supporting lens
Some will couple for and control "auto focus" with supporting lenses

Steve

(...in a verbose mood...)

**goatsNdonkey** · 11-24-2016, 11:40 AM

My father-in-law's middle name was "Auto," or was it "Otto"? When it came to having a beer he was definitely Auto!

Xmas · 11-25-2016, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Regarding lenses:

Almost all SLR lenses support "auto aperture actuation" by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling and some have a switch to allow either "manual" or "auto" aperture
Some of those support "auto aperture control" by the camera body using mechanical and/or electrical coupling. These either lack an aperture ring or have a special "A, P, or AE" position on the aperture ring.
Some of those also support "auto focus control" by the camera body by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling

Regarding bodies:[LIST]

Steve

(...in a verbose mood...)

Before instant return mirrors and 'fully auto' lenses for SLRs there were

Iris control rings
Click stops
Manuel stop down rings
Auto stop down manual open up

I use an 'AutoTakumar 55mm /2' with manual open up most of my shots are at 5.6

**TomB_tx** · 11-25-2016, 08:22 AM

I sometimes use a 1934 Leica Summar (50 f2) lens on my M9. Controls for iris and focus only. Still makes nice pictures with "character."

**goatsNdonkey** · 11-25-2016, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by TomB_tx

I sometimes use a 1934 Leica Summar (50 f2) lens on my M9. Controls for iris and focus only. Still makes nice pictures with "character."

My newly acquired preset aperture Helios 44-2 f2 58mm reminds me how high-tech auto aperture system is on my Super-Takumar f1.8 55mm is, though it really isn't hard to use either one (with an m42 adapter) on my K110D or K10D.

TheBee · 03-07-2020, 09:16 AM

I just got an old 35mm Super Multi Coated Takumar f2 (M42 screw).
Just wondering if you could tell me how to switch from auto to manual on these lenses?

I'm waiting for an adapter to put on my M43 camera so I can't try it out yet...but in the meantime I was just checking that everything was ok.

The Auto to manual switch doesn't seem to want to budge...any advice?

**TwoUptons** · 03-07-2020, 10:26 AM - **1 Like**

The lens wants to be on a camera for that to work right.

There’s a little switch on the mount that is pressed when you mount it.

I’d suggest you read the beginning of this thread for details, but your adapter will probably work for that purpose.

If it does, it should work fine once the lens is on the adapter.

That’s one of my favorite M42 lenses...

-Eric

stevebrot · 03-07-2020, 03:19 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by TheBee

The Auto to manual switch doesn't seem to want to budge...any advice?

Don't attempt to force the A/M switch on an SMC/S-M-C Takumar lens. Doing so may ruin the aperture mechanism. There is an interlock pin on the flange face that restricts use of the A/M switch to when the lens is mounted or a proper back cap attached. The interlock is related to proper behavior for open aperture metering when used with Spotmatic Electro, ES, ESII, and F bodies.

Your adapter should work seamlessly with the interlock and should enable the M/A switch.

Steve

11-24-2016, 09:22 AM	#23
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Helios 84-5 For a film user it's obvious but for a Digital user who decide to use vintage lenses, that's like the 4th dimension. Even for film users, it is not obvious unless one was doing photography during the age when having an "auto" aperture was a marketing feature. I have several lenses where "auto" is their first name Now days, the people most aware of "auto" aperture are those using bellows, simple extension tubes, or adapted lenses where "manual" aperture is the rule. Unfortunately, use of the words "auto" and "manual" has gotten very sloppy in regards to lenses. On this site we regularly get requests regarding issues with "manual" technique. I am thinking that a "sticky" might be in order with something like... Regarding lenses: Almost all SLR lenses support "auto aperture actuation" by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling and some have a switch to allow either "manual" or "auto" aperture Some of those support "auto aperture control" by the camera body using mechanical and/or electrical coupling. These either lack an aperture ring or have a special "A, P, or AE" position on the aperture ring. Some of those also support "auto focus control" by the camera body by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling Regarding bodies: Almost all SLRs (film and digital) will couple for "auto aperture actuation" with a supporting lens Some are capable of exposure automation ("auto exposure", Av, Sv, P, etc.) with a supporting lens Some are capable of coupling to control the aperture from the body ("automated aperture control") with a supporting lens Some will couple for and control "auto focus" with supporting lenses Steve (...in a verbose mood...) Last edited by stevebrot; 11-24-2016 at 09:32 AM.

11-25-2016, 04:51 AM	#25
Xmas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 617	Originally posted by stevebrot Regarding lenses: Almost all SLR lenses support "auto aperture actuation" by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling and some have a switch to allow either "manual" or "auto" aperture Some of those support "auto aperture control" by the camera body using mechanical and/or electrical coupling. These either lack an aperture ring or have a special "A, P, or AE" position on the aperture ring. Some of those also support "auto focus control" by the camera body by means of a mechanical or electrical coupling Regarding bodies:[LIST] Steve (...in a verbose mood...) Before instant return mirrors and 'fully auto' lenses for SLRs there were Iris control rings Click stops Manuel stop down rings Auto stop down manual open up I use an 'AutoTakumar 55mm /2' with manual open up most of my shots are at 5.6

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11-23-2016, 07:20 AM	#16
Helios 1984 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Saint-Constant, Québec Posts: 747	I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to voltage changes? Here's a thread concerning batteries, there is several options: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/8-pentax-film-slr-discussion/135112-asahi...mendation.html

11-23-2016, 08:25 AM - 1 Like	#17
Xmas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 617	Originally posted by Helios 84-5 I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to voltage changes? Here's a thread concerning batteries, there is several options: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/8-pentax-film-slr-discussion/135112-asahi...mendation.html They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film?

11-23-2016, 09:26 AM	#18
Helios 1984 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Saint-Constant, Québec Posts: 747	Originally posted by Xmas They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film? +1 Better safe than sorry.

11-23-2016, 11:18 AM - 1 Like	#19
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Helios 84-5 I thought Spotties had bridge circuits and were unsensitive to Originally posted by Xmas They have balanced circuits and are insensitive to cell voltage but is desirable to test them against known good rather than on film? voltage changes? Sort of...the circuit is not a complete bridge. I have the circuit schematic somewhere. While generally not sensitive to voltage, the circuit is not fully balanced. As a result, meter response is not linear at low light levels when used with modern silver or alkaline batteries. Steve

11-23-2016, 05:19 PM	#20
TomB_tx Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,446	"Automatic" has sure had a lot of meanings on lenses over the years! Today people expect it to mean auto focus. Before that, with "program" cameras people thought of auto-exposure. Before that, with SLR cameras it was automatic diaphragm stop down, as with the lens here. Back in 1932-33 Leica promoted the Leica II as the "automatic focusing" camera. That's because the first Leica I had a distance scale on the lens, but no built-in means to judge the distance. You used a separate rangefinder to find and read the distance, then set the lens to the same distance mark. The Leica II built the rangefinder into the camera with a linkage to the lens. You turned the lens focus control until the rangefinder showed the double image merge into one, and then the lens was "automatically" in focus. That was autofocus in 1932.

11-23-2016, 06:11 PM	#21
Helios 1984 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Saint-Constant, Québec Posts: 747	Originally posted by TomB_tx "Automatic" has sure had a lot of meanings on lenses over the years! Today people expect it to mean auto focus. Before that, with "program" cameras people thought of auto-exposure. Before that, with SLR cameras it was automatic diaphragm stop down, as with the lens here. Back in 1932-33 Leica promoted the Leica II as the "automatic focusing" camera. That's because the first Leica I had a distance scale on the lens, but no built-in means to judge the distance. You used a separate rangefinder to find and read the distance, then set the lens to the same distance mark. The Leica II built the rangefinder into the camera with a linkage to the lens. You turned the lens focus control until the rangefinder showed the double image merge into one, and then the lens was "automatically" in focus. That was autofocus in 1932. Ahh I remember when I figured out the purpose of this pin and that Auto did not meant Auto. For a film user it's obvious but for a Digital user who decide to use vintage lenses, that's like the 4th dimension.

11-24-2016, 12:54 AM - 1 Like	#22
Xmas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 617	Originally posted by stevebrot Sort of...the circuit is not a complete bridge. I have the circuit schematic somewhere. While generally not sensitive to voltage, the circuit is not fully balanced. As a result, meter response is not linear at low light levels when used with modern silver or alkaline batteries. Steve Confirmed: the circuit is a pukka Wheatstone bridge but the meter is at centre at 3 micro amps (current) instead of zero amps, ie unbalanced so if you need 1/3 stop a zinc hearing aid is ok. A silver cell will have a fixed meter offset. An alkaline with variable internal resistance in service variable... For interest the K1000 'series' use a differential galvanometer so avoid this problem think the very late spots do too. But the photo cells are life time variable so simple testing with two cameras desirable.

11-24-2016, 11:40 AM	#24
goatsNdonkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Fulton County, Illinois Posts: 3,729	My father-in-law's middle name was "Auto," or was it "Otto"? When it came to having a beer he was definitely Auto!

11-25-2016, 08:22 AM	#26
TomB_tx Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,446	I sometimes use a 1934 Leica Summar (50 f2) lens on my M9. Controls for iris and focus only. Still makes nice pictures with "character."

11-25-2016, 11:24 AM	#27
goatsNdonkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Fulton County, Illinois Posts: 3,729	Originally posted by TomB_tx I sometimes use a 1934 Leica Summar (50 f2) lens on my M9. Controls for iris and focus only. Still makes nice pictures with "character." My newly acquired preset aperture Helios 44-2 f2 58mm reminds me how high-tech auto aperture system is on my Super-Takumar f1.8 55mm is, though it really isn't hard to use either one (with an m42 adapter) on my K110D or K10D.

03-07-2020, 09:16 AM	#28
TheBee New Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 8	I just got an old 35mm Super Multi Coated Takumar f2 (M42 screw). Just wondering if you could tell me how to switch from auto to manual on these lenses? I'm waiting for an adapter to put on my M43 camera so I can't try it out yet...but in the meantime I was just checking that everything was ok. The Auto to manual switch doesn't seem to want to budge...any advice?

03-07-2020, 10:26 AM - 1 Like	#29
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,214	The lens wants to be on a camera for that to work right. There’s a little switch on the mount that is pressed when you mount it. I’d suggest you read the beginning of this thread for details, but your adapter will probably work for that purpose. If it does, it should work fine once the lens is on the adapter. That’s one of my favorite M42 lenses... -Eric

03-07-2020, 03:19 PM - 2 Likes	#30
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by TheBee The Auto to manual switch doesn't seem to want to budge...any advice? Don't attempt to force the A/M switch on an SMC/S-M-C Takumar lens. Doing so may ruin the aperture mechanism. There is an interlock pin on the flange face that restricts use of the A/M switch to when the lens is mounted or a proper back cap attached. The interlock is related to proper behavior for open aperture metering when used with Spotmatic Electro, ES, ESII, and F bodies. Your adapter should work seamlessly with the interlock and should enable the M/A switch. Steve