Show us your grain!

Nachodog · 11-11-2008, 06:03 PM

How's this one? HP5 400 ISO w/ K1000

KungPOW · 11-11-2008, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Wombat

Here's my grainy shot of the breakwater at the ferry terminal near where I live. It was taken, strangely, using Ilford FP4plus at ISO 125. If anyone can explain why all of the shots off this roll came out so grainy I'd love to know. It was developed by a pro lab...

A couple of things might be at play here.

1. the process the lad uses might exagerate the grain on the film. Diferences in developer temperature, agresive agitation etc can all increase grain. Maybe one of the more expereanced film people on this forum can shed more light on this.

2. Did the lab scan your negatives for you? I have found that most of the scanners in labs are set up for colour films. These are dye based. They also sharpen the image at the time of scanning. While this helps the dye based films, the silver grain films come out with the grain exagerated. If you scanned the image yourself, try it agian with USM (unsharp mask) turned off.

Wombat · 11-13-2008, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by KungPOW

A couple of things might be at play here.

1. the process the lad uses might exagerate the grain on the film. Diferences in developer temperature, agresive agitation etc can all increase grain. Maybe one of the more expereanced film people on this forum can shed more light on this.

2. Did the lab scan your negatives for you? I have found that most of the scanners in labs are set up for colour films. These are dye based. They also sharpen the image at the time of scanning. While this helps the dye based films, the silver grain films come out with the grain exagerated. If you scanned the image yourself, try it agian with USM (unsharp mask) turned off.

Thanks, KungPOW. Yes, the lab scanned the negs.onto a CD. Since then I've had access to a flatbed scanner and re-scanned them myself and they still came out grainy. (I'll check whether I left USM on, though - good suggestion). So as you say, it must be the way they developed them. To their credit, I rang them and they offered to have another look at them and do a rescan, saving them as Tiffs this time, at no extra charge and they'll develop and scan my next roll and only charge me for the developing. That's a lab to cultivate!

All the same, it's given me the impetus to get off my bum and go buy a Patterson tank and try to remember how to do it again. It's been decades.

**skid2964** · 11-13-2008, 02:25 PM

Pentax SuperProgram - Kodak Tmax ISO 3200

Last edited by skid2964; 11-18-2008 at 07:20 AM.

artobest · 11-14-2008, 04:39 PM

All really great shots. Love the beakers. Here's another from me to keep the ball rolling. Never sure how they're going to look until they're up. It's hard to get the grain showing through all the compression, that's for sure. You tend to get a smeary oil painting look. Believe me, I use nothing to get that effect! The whole digital world is 'going against the grain'!

This was shot on Provia 400X. There was an accidental double exposure there somewhere.

woof · 11-14-2008, 05:32 PM

Wombat · 11-14-2008, 10:45 PM

I'm really enjoying this thread. Talk about a breath of fresh air. So good to see mood and form coming to the fore in the pics and the discussion. Wonderful stuff from everybody.

I'll toss in another one from the same roll as before. A simple jetty shot at Kingscote, the main town on the island.

**fs999** · 11-15-2008, 04:36 PM

*ist and Sigma 28-70 f:2.8. Neopan 400 developed in ID-11.

Wombat · 11-15-2008, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by fs999

*ist and Sigma 28-70 f:2.8. Neopan 400 developed in ID-11.

Lovely, interesting shot. I'm curious about what camera you used, though. Isn't the *ist a digital?

titrisol · 11-16-2008, 06:51 AM

Delta 3200 in the Spotmatic
50/1.4 probably fully open

**Kerrowdown** · 11-16-2008, 12:22 PM

I remember when you pushed the limits in the camera of some films like TriX you got grain like golf balls.

If you pushed it again with chemicals at the dev stage these golf balls turned into beach balls.

I'll have a dig through the old stuff and see if I have any examples left.

Wombat · 11-16-2008, 04:43 PM

Quick question. When you really push a film, don't you ever run out of f stops and shutter speeds? Or do you just shoot in really dark situations? I was shooting yesterday afternoon, outdoors, with just a 400ISO film and had to close down all the way to f22 at 1/1000 for some pics. Nowhere left to go after that on my ME-F. So how to you guys manage the push process?

lithos · 11-16-2008, 10:34 PM

I shoot more dark stuff than bright landscapes. There's never enough light, and, occasionally, never enough DOF (because sometimes you can't focus fast or accurately enough).

I do stop- and shutter-out a lot in the rare occasions when I'm shooting during the day. What's ironic is that my ME Super's shutter goes to 1/2000, but its meter only goes to ISO 1600, whereas my Chinon CG-5's meter goes to ISO 3200 but its top shutter speed is 1/1000.

This one was taken with Tri-X at 3200, yet still I only got about 1/125 shutter speed at about f3.5 It's what counts as a brightly-lit shot for me:

There's grain in there, but it's minimised when you scan at 4800 DPI and reduce it...

Wombat · 11-17-2008, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by lithos

This one was taken with Tri-X at 3200, yet still I only got about 1/125 shutter speed at about f3.5 It's what counts as a brightly-lit shot for me:

Crikey! I'm amazed the interior of the shop isn't blown out to hell. They must use 2 watt light globes.
It's a great shot, mate. I love the way you've captured the woman so absorbed in her paper that she could be sitting on a bed of nails and wouldn't notice it, let alone the guy with the camera. BTW, do you ever use a polaroid filter when you're shooting through windows? It sounds like you'd have plenty of f stops to spare if you wanted to use one.

So you're a night prowler. I was going to ask if you ever get any offers, but I guess Brissie is a bit too respectable for that sort of thing....?

artobest · 11-18-2008, 04:16 PM

Skid, thanks for enlarging your shot - that's serious grain! Looks like it was drawn with a ballpoint pen!

11-14-2008, 04:39 PM	#20
artobest Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Swansea, Wales Posts: 455 Original Poster	All really great shots. Love the beakers. Here's another from me to keep the ball rolling. Never sure how they're going to look until they're up. It's hard to get the grain showing through all the compression, that's for sure. You tend to get a smeary oil painting look. Believe me, I use nothing to get that effect! The whole digital world is 'going against the grain'! This was shot on Provia 400X. There was an accidental double exposure there somewhere. Attached Images

11-16-2008, 06:51 AM	#25
titrisol Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the most populated state... state of denial Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,851	Delta 3200 in the Spotmatic 50/1.4 probably fully open Last edited by titrisol; 11-19-2008 at 03:21 AM.

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11-11-2008, 06:03 PM	#16
Nachodog Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal, Qc Posts: 472	How's this one? HP5 400 ISO w/ K1000

11-11-2008, 06:31 PM	#17
KungPOW Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,699	Originally posted by Wombat Here's my grainy shot of the breakwater at the ferry terminal near where I live. It was taken, strangely, using Ilford FP4plus at ISO 125. If anyone can explain why all of the shots off this roll came out so grainy I'd love to know. It was developed by a pro lab... A couple of things might be at play here. 1. the process the lad uses might exagerate the grain on the film. Diferences in developer temperature, agresive agitation etc can all increase grain. Maybe one of the more expereanced film people on this forum can shed more light on this. 2. Did the lab scan your negatives for you? I have found that most of the scanners in labs are set up for colour films. These are dye based. They also sharpen the image at the time of scanning. While this helps the dye based films, the silver grain films come out with the grain exagerated. If you scanned the image yourself, try it agian with USM (unsharp mask) turned off.

11-13-2008, 08:24 AM	#18
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	Originally posted by KungPOW A couple of things might be at play here. 1. the process the lad uses might exagerate the grain on the film. Diferences in developer temperature, agresive agitation etc can all increase grain. Maybe one of the more expereanced film people on this forum can shed more light on this. 2. Did the lab scan your negatives for you? I have found that most of the scanners in labs are set up for colour films. These are dye based. They also sharpen the image at the time of scanning. While this helps the dye based films, the silver grain films come out with the grain exagerated. If you scanned the image yourself, try it agian with USM (unsharp mask) turned off. Thanks, KungPOW. Yes, the lab scanned the negs.onto a CD. Since then I've had access to a flatbed scanner and re-scanned them myself and they still came out grainy. (I'll check whether I left USM on, though - good suggestion). So as you say, it must be the way they developed them. To their credit, I rang them and they offered to have another look at them and do a rescan, saving them as Tiffs this time, at no extra charge and they'll develop and scan my next roll and only charge me for the developing. That's a lab to cultivate! All the same, it's given me the impetus to get off my bum and go buy a Patterson tank and try to remember how to do it again. It's been decades.

11-13-2008, 02:25 PM	#19
skid2964 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 614	Pentax SuperProgram - Kodak Tmax ISO 3200 Last edited by skid2964; 11-18-2008 at 07:20 AM.

11-14-2008, 05:32 PM	#21
woof Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the present Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,870

11-14-2008, 10:45 PM	#22
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	I'm really enjoying this thread. Talk about a breath of fresh air. So good to see mood and form coming to the fore in the pics and the discussion. Wonderful stuff from everybody. I'll toss in another one from the same roll as before. A simple jetty shot at Kingscote, the main town on the island.

11-15-2008, 04:36 PM	#23
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,628	*ist and Sigma 28-70 f:2.8. Neopan 400 developed in ID-11.

11-15-2008, 07:27 PM	#24
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	Originally posted by fs999 ist and Sigma 28-70 f:2.8. Neopan 400 developed in ID-11. Lovely, interesting shot. I'm curious about what camera you used, though. Isn't the ist a digital?

11-16-2008, 12:22 PM	#26
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,804	I remember when you pushed the limits in the camera of some films like TriX you got grain like golf balls. If you pushed it again with chemicals at the dev stage these golf balls turned into beach balls. I'll have a dig through the old stuff and see if I have any examples left.

11-16-2008, 04:43 PM	#27
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	Quick question. When you really push a film, don't you ever run out of f stops and shutter speeds? Or do you just shoot in really dark situations? I was shooting yesterday afternoon, outdoors, with just a 400ISO film and had to close down all the way to f22 at 1/1000 for some pics. Nowhere left to go after that on my ME-F. So how to you guys manage the push process?

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11-16-2008, 10:34 PM	#28
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	I shoot more dark stuff than bright landscapes. There's never enough light, and, occasionally, never enough DOF (because sometimes you can't focus fast or accurately enough). I do stop- and shutter-out a lot in the rare occasions when I'm shooting during the day. What's ironic is that my ME Super's shutter goes to 1/2000, but its meter only goes to ISO 1600, whereas my Chinon CG-5's meter goes to ISO 3200 but its top shutter speed is 1/1000. This one was taken with Tri-X at 3200, yet still I only got about 1/125 shutter speed at about f3.5 It's what counts as a brightly-lit shot for me: There's grain in there, but it's minimised when you scan at 4800 DPI and reduce it...

11-17-2008, 11:11 PM	#29
Wombat Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 901	Originally posted by lithos This one was taken with Tri-X at 3200, yet still I only got about 1/125 shutter speed at about f3.5 It's what counts as a brightly-lit shot for me: Crikey! I'm amazed the interior of the shop isn't blown out to hell. They must use 2 watt light globes. It's a great shot, mate. I love the way you've captured the woman so absorbed in her paper that she could be sitting on a bed of nails and wouldn't notice it, let alone the guy with the camera. BTW, do you ever use a polaroid filter when you're shooting through windows? It sounds like you'd have plenty of f stops to spare if you wanted to use one. So you're a night prowler. I was going to ask if you ever get any offers, but I guess Brissie is a bit too respectable for that sort of thing....?

11-18-2008, 04:16 PM	#30
artobest Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Swansea, Wales Posts: 455 Original Poster	Skid, thanks for enlarging your shot - that's serious grain! Looks like it was drawn with a ballpoint pen!