LX vs Super Program metering

ctrout · 06-05-2017, 12:14 AM

I have both the LX and a couple of Super Programs. Seeing the similarities between the two, I can't help but wonder, since they both do TTL flash metering, why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering? The SP seems to have similar metering hardware in place so I would think that it should have been easily possible.

pathdoc · 06-05-2017, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by ctrout

why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering?

Not fitted with the gear, OR Pentax wanted to maintain differentiation between their ultra-high-end flagship and their next camera down. The LX is an exquisite beast, and much of the workmanship is hidden beneath the skin, in the quality of it, to say nothing of the associated system peripherals (viewfinders, focusing screens, backs, etc. etc. etc). That sort of quality is expensive, and sales are required to recoup that expense. If the Super Program had had OTF metering, nobody would ever have bought another LX.

Similarly, I hear that the *istD, the very first production Pentax digital camera, has the awesome and unique capability to do TTL flash metering with the pop-up, while the *istDS and DS2 have the requisite wiring but lack the firmware. As the owner of an *istDS, this is particularly galling - so close and yet so far - because there's nothing that would be more convenient to me than the ability to slap a K, M or M42 lens on the front of my camera, pop the flash up and take a quick candid at ANY aperture and ANY reasonable distance without the need to guess what I should set. But the *istD is such a different beast in other ways that trying to cross-patch the firmware would either result in disaster or require such supreme hacking skills that one could practically draft it from scratch. And given that these cameras are now, what, FOURTEEN years past their production date, I don't think it's the sort of cross-patch Ricoh engineers could really be bothered sitting down to write.

**TwoUptons** · 06-05-2017, 06:59 AM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term, but I thought the Super Program did have OTF flash metering, just that it wasn't as fancy as the system (borrowed from Olympus?) in the LX...

I know I loved the way that system worked. It's the only thing I can think of where it beat the modern stuff...

-Eric

pathdoc · 06-05-2017, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

I thought the Super Program did have OTF flash metering

Flash metering, yes; general non-flash metering, no.

**gofour3** · 06-05-2017, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by ctrout

why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering?

The cameras were marketed for different crowds. The LX was for "professionals" and the Super A/Program for "advanced users".

Supposedly professionals photographers weren't into camera "program modes" which the Super A had plenty of, but wanted interchangeable viewfinders/screens which the LX had plenty of.

Sure Pentax could have easily added OTF metering on the Super A, but did not want to. Would have increased the cost of the Super A too much and may have kicked the price into the "professional" range.

Phil.

pathdoc · 06-05-2017, 08:40 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by gofour3

Would have increased the cost of the Super A too much and may have kicked the price into the "professional" range.

It would be interesting to know for sure by how much. It might also have lowered the price of the LX, as the sunk/fixed R&D and production costs for the OTF gear could have been spread over a greater number of bodies. I think at least in part, it helped maintain the mystique of the LX among Pentax users as (still) the only body in the Pentax lineup which could do what it did. You wanted that capability? You bought the LX.

If they HAD put it in the Super Program, you would have had an all-singing all-dancing camera for the advanced enthusiast that was practically impossible to top, at least in the era in which tech/repair support for it existed and replacement mainboards could be ordered direct from Pentax... but in this day and age the upside of the LX is that even with the batteries out or the electronics fried, it will still take pictures (albeit unmetered) at flash sync speed or higher, while the Super Program becomes a paperweight at that point. No more new mainboards are being made for either and the number of spares is finite, which is why my favourite film bodies are those which don't need one.

I own a Super Program; I have held and shot the LX. The latter is a sweeter camera by far to handle, wind and shoot, nicely positioned in size between the K series bodies - too big for me - and the tiny M series - but the shutter speed lights were jittering in a way that did not make me feel comfortable, so I passed it by. I will not weep when my Super Program no longer functions; I got it dirt cheap and it takes good snapshots. I would curse the hundreds I would have to spend on an LX CLA (having already spent them on the body) and the loss of capability when the inevitable finally happens and the mainboard throws in the towel with no more spares available ever. It's the photographer's equivalent of meeting the partner of your dreams when you are both youthful and fresh... in the chilling and sobering knowledge that they are doomed to die long before you are. (For Dr Who fans it's the reason given why the Doctor rejects romance with humans: "You can spend your entire life with me, but I can't spend my entire life with you.")

OTF modules in the Super Program MIGHT have meant hundreds more spares out there and future proofing of the LX for another decade or so, but it depends on whether this could have been implemented in a modular fashion and shared between camera bodies. One suspects not.

**ChrisPlatt** · 06-05-2017, 09:58 AM

The Super Program was a fairly popular model. The LX System has its fans, but it never captured the pro market as Pentax hoped.

I'd love to see production/sales figures for various Pentax models for the period spanning the film SLR boom, 1975 to 1985.
It would be real interesting to see them broken down by region and compared to other manufacturers popular models.

Chris

Last edited by ChrisPlatt; 06-06-2017 at 06:17 PM.

leekil · 06-05-2017, 10:19 AM

I think the electronics of the Super Program are significantly different; it wouldn't have been just a drop-in-the-OTF, they would have had to construct the electronics more like the LX's. Is the LX more like a one-off or a evolutionary dead end in the Pentax line? The larger size than the M series makes me think that it was more of a direction that wasn't pursued -- or possibly delayed from earlier -- for whatever reason.

Pentaxke · 06-06-2017, 10:44 AM

Not sure, because I am not so tech savvy, butI think the reason why can have sth to do with the fact that the Super Program (= Super A outside the US.) had Tv and program, which the LX lacks. Because OTF meters during exposure, you would have to add extra electronics (I think.)

That said, I had a Super A during the nineties, and while I loved the camera, it had 3 serious flaws, which in order of importance (for me) were:
a) no exposure compensation lock (the dial on mine was very easy 'off' leading to lots of bad exposures slides
b) f/ number would not show on any setting other than A
c) DOF would not work on Tv and program

mostly a) made me sell the camera...

LesDMess · 06-06-2017, 09:30 PM

The Olympus OM2 was the first product - among other firsts, to be released with OTF metering in aperture priority mode only as well as flash mode. It does have metering cels in the viewfinder for manual mode and provides initial metering in auto mode.

It is interesting but there were quite a few cameras of the era that had OTF TTL flash but not OTF film metering including LX's peer the Nikon F3. Unlike the others that have two sets of metering cels (in the viewfinder as well as backwards facing cel to measure flash off the film) the F3 only has one metering cel in the mirror box. However Nikon did not implement OTF metering for general use.

In their review of the OM2, Pop Magazine identified that both Canon and Minolta studied and patented OTF metering before Olympus. Minolta didn't implement TTL in their flash (only) until 1981 with the X-700 and Canon with the T50 in 1982 and also with flash only.

ctrout · 06-06-2017, 10:20 PM

I had posesseion of an OM-2 for a while that I was selling for a friend. It was kind of qwirky and not as intuitive in use as the LX. I think the LX i9s a FAR better handling camera. I also LOVE the Super Program and have no issues with the exposure comp dial or the f number not being visible. If DOF is critical to a photo that I'm taking, I am not hindered by switching to AV mode. If I require a specific shutter speed to get a shot, Then DOF is secondary and the shot will be dictated by the shutter speed. Beautiful DOF and bokeh in a shot that is unusable due to motion blur is useless. As for the availibility of DOF preview in TV or P mode, the camera doesn't know what the aperture will be until the moment of exposure so how could anyone expect it to be able to show you DOF for an exposure that can't be calculated until some moment in the future? Are there cameras out there that can predict lighting conditions for a future exposure and tell you what aperture they may need for that future exposure?

06-05-2017, 12:14 AM	#1
ctrout Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Photos: Gallery Posts: 444	LX vs Super Program metering I have both the LX and a couple of Super Programs. Seeing the similarities between the two, I can't help but wonder, since they both do TTL flash metering, why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering? The SP seems to have similar metering hardware in place so I would think that it should have been easily possible.

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06-05-2017, 04:11 AM	#2
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by ctrout why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering? Not fitted with the gear, OR Pentax wanted to maintain differentiation between their ultra-high-end flagship and their next camera down. The LX is an exquisite beast, and much of the workmanship is hidden beneath the skin, in the quality of it, to say nothing of the associated system peripherals (viewfinders, focusing screens, backs, etc. etc. etc). That sort of quality is expensive, and sales are required to recoup that expense. If the Super Program had had OTF metering, nobody would ever have bought another LX. Similarly, I hear that the istD, the very first production* Pentax digital camera, has the awesome and unique capability to do TTL flash metering with the pop-up, while the istDS and DS2 have the requisite wiring but lack the firmware. As the owner of an istDS, this is particularly galling - so close and yet so far - because there's nothing that would be more convenient to me than the ability to slap a K, M or M42 lens on the front of my camera, pop the flash up and take a quick candid at ANY aperture and ANY reasonable distance without the need to guess what I should set. But the *istD is such a different beast in other ways that trying to cross-patch the firmware would either result in disaster or require such supreme hacking skills that one could practically draft it from scratch. And given that these cameras are now, what, FOURTEEN years past their production date, I don't think it's the sort of cross-patch Ricoh engineers could really be bothered sitting down to write.

06-05-2017, 06:59 AM	#3
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,224	Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term, but I thought the Super Program did have OTF flash metering, just that it wasn't as fancy as the system (borrowed from Olympus?) in the LX... I know I loved the way that system worked. It's the only thing I can think of where it beat the modern stuff... -Eric

06-05-2017, 07:24 AM	#4
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by TwoUptons I thought the Super Program did have OTF flash metering Flash metering, yes; general non-flash metering, no.

06-05-2017, 08:04 AM	#5
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,092	Originally posted by ctrout why do you suppose it is that the Super Program can't do OTF metering? The cameras were marketed for different crowds. The LX was for "professionals" and the Super A/Program for "advanced users". Supposedly professionals photographers weren't into camera "program modes" which the Super A had plenty of, but wanted interchangeable viewfinders/screens which the LX had plenty of. Sure Pentax could have easily added OTF metering on the Super A, but did not want to. Would have increased the cost of the Super A too much and may have kicked the price into the "professional" range. Phil.

06-05-2017, 08:40 AM - 1 Like	#6
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by gofour3 Would have increased the cost of the Super A too much and may have kicked the price into the "professional" range. It would be interesting to know for sure by how much. It might also have lowered the price of the LX, as the sunk/fixed R&D and production costs for the OTF gear could have been spread over a greater number of bodies. I think at least in part, it helped maintain the mystique of the LX among Pentax users as (still) the only body in the Pentax lineup which could do what it did. You wanted that capability? You bought the LX. If they HAD put it in the Super Program, you would have had an all-singing all-dancing camera for the advanced enthusiast that was practically impossible to top, at least in the era in which tech/repair support for it existed and replacement mainboards could be ordered direct from Pentax... but in this day and age the upside of the LX is that even with the batteries out or the electronics fried, it will still take pictures (albeit unmetered) at flash sync speed or higher, while the Super Program becomes a paperweight at that point. No more new mainboards are being made for either and the number of spares is finite, which is why my favourite film bodies are those which don't need one. I own a Super Program; I have held and shot the LX. The latter is a sweeter camera by far to handle, wind and shoot, nicely positioned in size between the K series bodies - too big for me - and the tiny M series - but the shutter speed lights were jittering in a way that did not make me feel comfortable, so I passed it by. I will not weep when my Super Program no longer functions; I got it dirt cheap and it takes good snapshots. I would curse the hundreds I would have to spend on an LX CLA (having already spent them on the body) and the loss of capability when the inevitable finally happens and the mainboard throws in the towel with no more spares available ever. It's the photographer's equivalent of meeting the partner of your dreams when you are both youthful and fresh... in the chilling and sobering knowledge that they are doomed to die long before you are. (For Dr Who fans it's the reason given why the Doctor rejects romance with humans: "You can spend your entire life with me, but I can't spend my entire life with you.") OTF modules in the Super Program MIGHT have meant hundreds more spares out there and future proofing of the LX for another decade or so, but it depends on whether this could have been implemented in a modular fashion and shared between camera bodies. One suspects not.

06-05-2017, 09:58 AM	#7
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,696	The Super Program was a fairly popular model. The LX System has its fans, but it never captured the pro market as Pentax hoped. I'd love to see production/sales figures for various Pentax models for the period spanning the film SLR boom, 1975 to 1985. It would be real interesting to see them broken down by region and compared to other manufacturers popular models. Chris Last edited by ChrisPlatt; 06-06-2017 at 06:17 PM.

06-05-2017, 10:19 AM	#8
leekil Pentaxian Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 2,003	I think the electronics of the Super Program are significantly different; it wouldn't have been just a drop-in-the-OTF, they would have had to construct the electronics more like the LX's. Is the LX more like a one-off or a evolutionary dead end in the Pentax line? The larger size than the M series makes me think that it was more of a direction that wasn't pursued -- or possibly delayed from earlier -- for whatever reason.

06-06-2017, 10:44 AM	#9
Pentaxke Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 476	Not sure, because I am not so tech savvy, butI think the reason why can have sth to do with the fact that the Super Program (= Super A outside the US.) had Tv and program, which the LX lacks. Because OTF meters during exposure, you would have to add extra electronics (I think.) That said, I had a Super A during the nineties, and while I loved the camera, it had 3 serious flaws, which in order of importance (for me) were: a) no exposure compensation lock (the dial on mine was very easy 'off' leading to lots of bad exposures slides b) f/ number would not show on any setting other than A c) DOF would not work on Tv and program mostly a) made me sell the camera...

06-06-2017, 09:30 PM	#10
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	The Olympus OM2 was the first product - among other firsts, to be released with OTF metering in aperture priority mode only as well as flash mode. It does have metering cels in the viewfinder for manual mode and provides initial metering in auto mode. It is interesting but there were quite a few cameras of the era that had OTF TTL flash but not OTF film metering including LX's peer the Nikon F3. Unlike the others that have two sets of metering cels (in the viewfinder as well as backwards facing cel to measure flash off the film) the F3 only has one metering cel in the mirror box. However Nikon did not implement OTF metering for general use. In their review of the OM2, Pop Magazine identified that both Canon and Minolta studied and patented OTF metering before Olympus. Minolta didn't implement TTL in their flash (only) until 1981 with the X-700 and Canon with the T50 in 1982 and also with flash only.

06-06-2017, 10:20 PM	#11
ctrout Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Photos: Gallery Posts: 444 Original Poster	I had posesseion of an OM-2 for a while that I was selling for a friend. It was kind of qwirky and not as intuitive in use as the LX. I think the LX i9s a FAR better handling camera. I also LOVE the Super Program and have no issues with the exposure comp dial or the f number not being visible. If DOF is critical to a photo that I'm taking, I am not hindered by switching to AV mode. If I require a specific shutter speed to get a shot, Then DOF is secondary and the shot will be dictated by the shutter speed. Beautiful DOF and bokeh in a shot that is unusable due to motion blur is useless. As for the availibility of DOF preview in TV or P mode, the camera doesn't know what the aperture will be until the moment of exposure so how could anyone expect it to be able to show you DOF for an exposure that can't be calculated until some moment in the future? Are there cameras out there that can predict lighting conditions for a future exposure and tell you what aperture they may need for that future exposure?