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05-06-2018, 11:53 AM   #1
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UV/Haze filters

So most of the explanations why you shouldn’t use a UV filter on your modern DSLR start off with the point that digital image sensors “aren’t sensitive to UV the way that film was.”

This of course begs the question, if I am shooting film do UV filters provide any optical benefit? What kinds of film, what kinds of subjects, in what conditions will I see this benefit? I thought the glass in the lens would likely filter most UV?

(Note: I want to avoid discussing the “protection” argument. That always seems to be unproductive. My question is specifically optical benefits. Things that will improve my pictures.)

05-06-2018, 12:49 PM   #2
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UV light made film photos a bit bluer than you saw the scene, especially with transparency film. I expect the effect was more pronounced at higher altitudes, but I remember the difference when photographing on Kodachrome many moons ago. A Skylight 1B was preferred to a 1A, generally. Still got a couple of them stashed away somewhere with the Cromofilters from my M42 screwthread days.
05-06-2018, 01:04 PM   #3
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The glass in lenses does block some of the UV but not all of it and the bit that gets through can be enough to shift the colour balance, some old lenses that had elements cemented together with Canada Balsam block UV completely but more modern lens adhesive do pass UV. If you shine a UV torch (flashlight)through a lens then you can demonstrate this quite easily.

I have read that a UV filter is only needed at high altitude or at the seaside as that is when high levels of UV are most prevalent,but not sure about that.
05-06-2018, 03:27 PM   #4
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My understanding is skylight is a bit bifferent. It’s a slight magenta colored filter UV was more about hazy images. But I’m guessing that some haze is really there and a filter probably won’t clean it up. I just got a new lens for my Pentax 67 and it came with the Pentax bayonet L39 (UV) filter. I figured I’d take it off and leave it in a box, but then I thought that maybe it really would be worthwhile to use.

05-06-2018, 04:11 PM - 2 Likes   #5
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Skylight filters are a bit "pinkish" and UV are "yellowish". A UV filter will pretty much cut off everything below 380 nm since the yellow tint in the filter begins absorbing light around 420nm. The yellow is very subtle and can be easily compensated for if needed which is not often the case. DSLR cameras many, including Pentax, have a UV/IR reject filter built in which very sharply cuts off around 410 nm meaning the effects of a UV filter wouldn't be seen. The glass in most lenses will transmit UV down to 380 nm or lower so they could be benefited by the UV filter in film cameras, but little is to be gained for DSLRs other than front element protection which can be more beneficial than any UV blocking they do.

Note the horizontal scales on the attached bandpass spectra aren't aligned with each other and the scaling is different.
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Last edited by Bob 256; 05-06-2018 at 04:34 PM.
05-06-2018, 05:11 PM   #6
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interesting. I'm not sure how to read this, and I'm sure that I'd get it wrong if I try, but its interesting that density is trending upward at the UV end of the spectrum (spectral density for Fuji Velvia RVP50)
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05-06-2018, 05:20 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
So most of the explanations why you shouldn’t use a UV filter on your modern DSLR start off with the point that digital image sensors “aren’t sensitive to UV the way that film was.”

This of course begs the question, if I am shooting film do UV filters provide any optical benefit? What kinds of film, what kinds of subjects, in what conditions will I see this benefit? I thought the glass in the lens would likely filter most UV?
In short, filters 1A, 1B, Skylight, Warm, Neutral etc.. They have the practical effect of making filter manufacturers earn money.

With film they had a meaning, but now when you do the white balance they have no influence except to protect the front lens.

Another thing is the polarizer, the graduating, the infrared filters.

The concept is clear!

05-06-2018, 06:13 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
My understanding is skylight is a bit different
Slide film likes skylight filters, so if you are shooting that type of film then I would get one. You can leave the filter on all the time, as it does what the UV filter does and also reduces blue in overcast/shady scenes.

I never shoot any E6 film without a skylight filter, unless I'm indoors. Pentax made them in various filter threads for their 6x7 lenses.

Phil.
05-06-2018, 06:33 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by maw Quote
With film they had a meaning, but now when you do the white balance they have no influence except to protect the front lens.
I think you’re missing the reason for this thread. I am shooting film, and your comment mirrors what I see all over the place, so I’m trying to get a sense what the benefit is for film and when I should use it (if ever)
05-06-2018, 08:30 PM   #10
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I don't usually use them, but at higher elevations a UV filter should reduce the haze caused by UV that registers at the blue end of film, on the other hand if you want the effect of haze--to more strongly suggest what is close and what is far away--then don't use it.

Skylight adjust for sky light (more blue) than sunlight**--thus it is a warming filter. If shooting slide you have less/no control on color temperature so the filter is needed. If you prefer a warmer look you can always use it (I don't). Also depending on the lighting (sky, vs all clouds, etc.) stronger warming than skylight may be desirable.

Finally/summary both color negative and slide can benefit from UV filter--if the bluish distance haze is the issue. Only slide really needs skylight--if there is mostly skylight, as color negative is more easily adjusted as part of scanning/printing.
_____
** Classic example--sun is blocked by a wall, but the blue sky is illuminating the blocked region. A photo that shows both sides of the wall will have a very blue cast for area only illuminated by sky. A skylight filter will fix the bluish cast, but the sun side will be too warm (amber/reddish)--but that is usually better/less noticeable.

BTW for B&W film the UV filter should still have the same/similar effect, but the skylight has virtually none.

Last edited by dms; 05-06-2018 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Added footnote, and latter comment on B&W film
05-06-2018, 10:09 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
I’m trying to get a sense what the benefit is for film and when I should use it (if ever)
At one time, before the depletion of the ozone layer, UV was really only a concern at high altitudes. Today, even at sea level, the UV index is high.

I shoot black & white film often and using a UV filter helps to render blue skies the correct tonal value of grey. Without it, skies tend to be washed out on black and white prints (and overexposed on the negs).

However, I often use a yellow filter for B&W and donʻt need to and avoid stacking filters. For color film, I usually use a polarizer, but if not, a good multicoated UV is always used in daylight. Negs and higher ISO films are more forgiving than slides and lower ISO films.
05-06-2018, 10:42 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
I shoot black & white film often and using a UV filter helps to render blue skies the correct tonal value of grey. Without it, skies tend to be washed out on black and white prints (and overexposed on the negs).
My black and white sky’s do usually wash out very easily. I’ve been looking into grad ND filters as an option (as well as yellow/orange/red). I live at 4000 feet and frequently travel up to 12000 ft (and rarely down), so I’m guessing I qualify as higher elevations. We’ll see once I have a chance to shoot some landscapes with the new 75 lens. I’ll leave the UV filter on it and see how my skies look.

Any idea if the original Pentax branded filters were good quality? I’m assuming they were pretty good quality.

Thanks for the comments.
05-06-2018, 11:46 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
Any idea if the original Pentax branded filters were good quality? I’m assuming they were pretty good quality.
In my experience OEM filters are/were above average quality and price. The main thing you want to make sure is that it is multicoated and there are no de-lamination issues on older filters.

In the same way I often see people prioritize their budget on the camera and then skimp on the lens (should be the other way around), you donʻt want your worst element to be the filter degrading your optics.
05-07-2018, 07:26 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
Any idea if the original Pentax branded filters were good quality? I’m assuming they were pretty good quality.
Yes they are very good but make sure you get the SMC version. Pentax filters also came in single coated versions and "SMC" is missing in the name.

Note some filters like the Pentax "Morning & Evening" only came in the single coated version.

Phil.
05-07-2018, 08:21 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Skylight filters are a bit "pinkish" and UV are "yellowish". A UV filter will pretty much cut off everything below 380 nm since the yellow tint in the filter begins absorbing light around 420nm. The yellow is very subtle and can be easily compensated for if needed which is not often the case. DSLR cameras many, including Pentax, have a UV/IR reject filter built in which very sharply cuts off around 410 nm meaning the effects of a UV filter wouldn't be seen. The glass in most lenses will transmit UV down to 380 nm or lower so they could be benefited by the UV filter in film cameras, but little is to be gained for DSLRs other than front element protection which can be more beneficial than any UV blocking they do.

Note the horizontal scales on the attached bandpass spectra aren't aligned with each other and the scaling is different.
Thanks for the explanation. I wish filter makers explained all this. Few weeks ago I was trying to decide between "Clear" v/s "UV/Haze". Read the FAQ on B+W site and it was not helpful at all. Hiding information makes me doubt their integrity and also the claims they make about superior quality of their product.

Finally in a dogmatic style I purchased "Clear" filters.
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