ND filter

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 08:17 AM

I've discovered out here that 400 speed film is borderline unusable outdoors on a camera with a max shutter speed of 1/500. Basically I have the choice of shooting ƒ16 @ 1/500 or ƒ22 @ 1/250.

So I was thinking a simple 4 stop ND filter (ND16) would give me some more options.. ƒ4 @ 1/500 all the way to ƒ22 @ 1/15.

The question I have is how dark is leaving a 4 stop ND on the front of my lens (an ƒ2.8)? Is it too dark to focus with?

As an experiment, I went out yesterday afternoon with a polarizer, and rated the filter loss at 1 2/3 stops (I shot Tri-X at 125). The film looks very good, though I have't scanned it yet. Am I greedy hoping to get 4 stops and still use in daylight? Should I try 3 stops (ND8) instead? Taking the filter on and off would be problematic.

**jlstrawman** · 06-19-2018, 08:50 AM

A Complete Guide to Neutral Density Filters

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by jlstrawman

A Complete Guide to Neutral Density Filters

I didn't see the answer to my question in that link. Specifically is 4 stops of ND going to make it too dark to manually focus?

Geof

**gofour3** · 06-19-2018, 08:58 AM - **1 Like**

I use a 4 stop ND filter sometimes and for critical focusing it may be tricky, for landscape you should be ok. It also depends on how bright you cameras viewfinder is.

Phil.

Eyewanders · 06-19-2018, 09:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by abruzzi

I didn't see the answer to my question in that link. Specifically is 4 stops of ND going to make it too dark to manually focus?

It won't be easy, but in the bright conditions you're talking about you might get by. Stop your 2.8 down to f11 in the same type of light and have a look with DoF preview (which camera are you talking about specifically?) - it won't be the same obviously but should give you an approximation of how much light your eye will have.

Not sure it jives with how you're intending to shoot but alternatively, I'd look into proper filter systems like Lee with slide-in, locking plates. You can leave the holder mounted and take filters in and out easily, combine them, use grads, etc. A big world of options far beyond thread-mount filters.

LensBeginner · 06-19-2018, 10:03 AM - **1 Like**

If you don't mind color casts (e.g. you're shooting B/W film), or find one that doesn't have much, you could use a variable ND. You focus, then rotate the filter and shoot.

With a 2 to 8 stops, you can live with a 2-stop loss (like using a polarizer), especially since you say that it will be used in Sunny-16 conditions.

A lighter 0.45-2.7 stops could do in those cases when there's a little less light, but still too much to get the aperture/shutter speed combo you need.

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by LensBeginner

If you don't mind color casts (e.g. you're shooting B/W film), or find one that doesn't have much, you could use a variable ND. You focus, then rotate the filter and shoot.

With a 2 to 8 stops, you can live with a 2-stop loss (like using a polarizer), especially since you say that it will be used in Sunny-16 conditions.

A lighter 0.45-2.7 stops could do in those cases when there's a little less light, but still too much to get the aperture/shutter speed combo you need.

I thought about variable ND, but the ones I looked at don't have graduated markings and this camera (Bronica ETRSi) doesn't have TTL metering. I suppose I could test it out and make my own markings.

The focusing screen on this camera is pretty bright at ƒ2.8 (the fastest lenses for the system.) So it may be OK.

I've considered a Cokin/Lee filter system, and I may try that in the future, but I bought this camera as a simple lightweight medium format alternative to my Pentax 67 (which I love, but weighs a ton). I've outfitted it minimally--lens, body, back, and waist level finder, and its almost as easy to carry as a DSLR. Adding a full filter system as opposed to a screw-on ND definitely takes it out of "walk around" category.

I didn't even think to try stopping down the lens--duh! I'll give it a go today and see how dark it gets.

Eyewanders · 06-19-2018, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by abruzzi

Adding a full filter system as opposed to a screw-on ND definitely takes it out of "walk around" category.

I didn't even think to try stopping down the lens--duh! I'll give it a go today and see how dark it gets.

Yeah - definitely more fiddly and bulky. Good news is, depending which one, you could use all the filters you pick up on the 67 as well.
Good luck man - sounds fun. Never played with the ETRSi but a friend of mine in Denmark loves them dearly.
If you're using a WLF I'd *imagine* (again haven't used those) it might be pretty rough in bright sun, but if using a prism with a eye-cup/shade you might be fine.

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by chickentender

Yeah - definitely more fiddly and bulky. Good news is, depending which one, you could use all the filters you pick up on the 67 as well.
Good luck man - sounds fun. Never played with the ETRSi but a friend of mine in Denmark loves them dearly.
If you're using a WLF I'd *imagine* (again haven't used those) it might be pretty rough in bright sun, but if using a prism with a eye-cup/shade you might be fine.

If you flip up magnifier, the WLF is basically a closed box without any significant light leaks. If I leave the magnifier down, depending on the sun’s position, the screen can completely wash out.

Eyewanders · 06-19-2018, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by abruzzi

If you flip up magnifier, the WLF is basically a closed box without any significant light leaks. If I leave the magnifier down, depending on the sun’s position, the screen can completely wash out.

More light-tight than the 67 WLF then? The one on my Pentacon isn't bad, but light still find its way in there when it's bright and washes everything out a bit.

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by chickentender

More light-tight than the 67 WLF then? The one on my Pentacon isn't bad, but light still find its way in there when it's bright and washes everything out a bit.

Not perfect, but pretty good. There are a few angles where the front seam between the finder and the body will let slip a narrow beam. I haven't tried the P67 WLF in bright light, so I can't compare.

johnha · 06-19-2018, 01:30 PM

The obvious question is why not use a slower film (I guess there's a reason)? I've had problems focussing through a mono red filter (which loses perhaps 2 stops), if you're shooting mono, wouldn't a set of colour filters be more suitable?

Lee filters are very good, but the overall cost (depending on how many filter thread sizes and filters you need/want) certainly adds up very quickly (more more so than Cokin P series).

abruzzi · 06-19-2018, 01:45 PM

I do, but there are limitations. I've been shooting a lot of TMAX 100, but after shooting some Tri-X, I really preferred the tonality. I liked the Fomapan 100 I shot recently, and I'm going to try some more rolls, but depending on who you ask, there are a lot of quality control issues with Fomapan, and I might be happier sticking with a yellow box (though even Kodak has had reliability issues recently.) Additionally, 100 speed is only two stops from 400. Not much ISO 25 film out there. I have a roll of Ilford Pan-F+ at ISO 50 which I'm going to try out. Is there any sub-100 speed color other than the nice but extremely expensive Velvia 50? I guess there is Cinestill, which I've never tried.

Eyewanders · 06-19-2018, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by abruzzi

I do, but there are limitations. I've been shooting a lot of TMAX 100, but after shooting some Tri-X, I really preferred the tonality. I liked the Fomapan 100 I shot recently, and I'm going to try some more rolls, but depending on who you ask, there are a lot of quality control issues with Fomapan, and I might be happier sticking with a yellow box (though even Kodak has had reliability issues recently.) Additionally, 100 speed is only two stops from 400. Not much ISO 25 film out there. I have a roll of Ilford Pan-F+ at ISO 50 which I'm going to try out. Is there any sub-100 speed color other than the nice but extremely expensive Velvia 50? I guess there is Cinestill, which I've never tried.

Cinestill 50D is lovely stuff. Expensive, but lovely. (Though I've only shot it in 135)

**gofour3** · 06-19-2018, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by chickentender

Cinestill 50D is lovely stuff. Expensive, but lovely. (Though I've only shot it in 135)

I bought a roll in 120 from a local film store, trying to figure out what I want to shoot with it. Cost about twice as much as a roll of Ektar or Portra in 120 and is equivalent to the cost of a roll of Velvia 50!

Phil.

06-19-2018, 08:17 AM	#1
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788	ND filter I've discovered out here that 400 speed film is borderline unusable outdoors on a camera with a max shutter speed of 1/500. Basically I have the choice of shooting ƒ16 @ 1/500 or ƒ22 @ 1/250. So I was thinking a simple 4 stop ND filter (ND16) would give me some more options.. ƒ4 @ 1/500 all the way to ƒ22 @ 1/15. The question I have is how dark is leaving a 4 stop ND on the front of my lens (an ƒ2.8)? Is it too dark to focus with? As an experiment, I went out yesterday afternoon with a polarizer, and rated the filter loss at 1 2/3 stops (I shot Tri-X at 125). The film looks very good, though I have't scanned it yet. Am I greedy hoping to get 4 stops and still use in daylight? Should I try 3 stops (ND8) instead? Taking the filter on and off would be problematic.

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06-19-2018, 08:50 AM	#2
jlstrawman Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Midwest US Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,058	A Complete Guide to Neutral Density Filters

06-19-2018, 08:53 AM	#3
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788 Original Poster	Originally posted by jlstrawman A Complete Guide to Neutral Density Filters I didn't see the answer to my question in that link. Specifically is 4 stops of ND going to make it too dark to manually focus? Geof

06-19-2018, 08:58 AM - 1 Like	#4
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,092	I use a 4 stop ND filter sometimes and for critical focusing it may be tricky, for landscape you should be ok. It also depends on how bright you cameras viewfinder is. Phil.

06-19-2018, 09:12 AM - 1 Like	#5
Eyewanders Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Land of the Salish Sea Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,343	Originally posted by abruzzi I didn't see the answer to my question in that link. Specifically is 4 stops of ND going to make it too dark to manually focus? It won't be easy, but in the bright conditions you're talking about you might get by. Stop your 2.8 down to f11 in the same type of light and have a look with DoF preview (which camera are you talking about specifically?) - it won't be the same obviously but should give you an approximation of how much light your eye will have. Not sure it jives with how you're intending to shoot but alternatively, I'd look into proper filter systems like Lee with slide-in, locking plates. You can leave the holder mounted and take filters in and out easily, combine them, use grads, etc. A big world of options far beyond thread-mount filters.

06-19-2018, 10:03 AM - 1 Like	#6
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	If you don't mind color casts (e.g. you're shooting B/W film), or find one that doesn't have much, you could use a variable ND. You focus, then rotate the filter and shoot. With a 2 to 8 stops, you can live with a 2-stop loss (like using a polarizer), especially since you say that it will be used in Sunny-16 conditions. A lighter 0.45-2.7 stops could do in those cases when there's a little less light, but still too much to get the aperture/shutter speed combo you need.

06-19-2018, 10:22 AM	#7
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788 Original Poster	Originally posted by LensBeginner If you don't mind color casts (e.g. you're shooting B/W film), or find one that doesn't have much, you could use a variable ND. You focus, then rotate the filter and shoot. With a 2 to 8 stops, you can live with a 2-stop loss (like using a polarizer), especially since you say that it will be used in Sunny-16 conditions. A lighter 0.45-2.7 stops could do in those cases when there's a little less light, but still too much to get the aperture/shutter speed combo you need. I thought about variable ND, but the ones I looked at don't have graduated markings and this camera (Bronica ETRSi) doesn't have TTL metering. I suppose I could test it out and make my own markings. The focusing screen on this camera is pretty bright at ƒ2.8 (the fastest lenses for the system.) So it may be OK. I've considered a Cokin/Lee filter system, and I may try that in the future, but I bought this camera as a simple lightweight medium format alternative to my Pentax 67 (which I love, but weighs a ton). I've outfitted it minimally--lens, body, back, and waist level finder, and its almost as easy to carry as a DSLR. Adding a full filter system as opposed to a screw-on ND definitely takes it out of "walk around" category. I didn't even think to try stopping down the lens--duh! I'll give it a go today and see how dark it gets.

06-19-2018, 10:36 AM	#8
Eyewanders Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Land of the Salish Sea Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,343	Originally posted by abruzzi Adding a full filter system as opposed to a screw-on ND definitely takes it out of "walk around" category. I didn't even think to try stopping down the lens--duh! I'll give it a go today and see how dark it gets. Yeah - definitely more fiddly and bulky. Good news is, depending which one, you could use all the filters you pick up on the 67 as well. Good luck man - sounds fun. Never played with the ETRSi but a friend of mine in Denmark loves them dearly. If you're using a WLF I'd imagine (again haven't used those) it might be pretty rough in bright sun, but if using a prism with a eye-cup/shade you might be fine.

06-19-2018, 11:30 AM	#9
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788 Original Poster	Originally posted by chickentender Yeah - definitely more fiddly and bulky. Good news is, depending which one, you could use all the filters you pick up on the 67 as well. Good luck man - sounds fun. Never played with the ETRSi but a friend of mine in Denmark loves them dearly. If you're using a WLF I'd imagine (again haven't used those) it might be pretty rough in bright sun, but if using a prism with a eye-cup/shade you might be fine. If you flip up magnifier, the WLF is basically a closed box without any significant light leaks. If I leave the magnifier down, depending on the sun’s position, the screen can completely wash out.

06-19-2018, 12:11 PM	#10
Eyewanders Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Land of the Salish Sea Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,343	Originally posted by abruzzi If you flip up magnifier, the WLF is basically a closed box without any significant light leaks. If I leave the magnifier down, depending on the sun’s position, the screen can completely wash out. More light-tight than the 67 WLF then? The one on my Pentacon isn't bad, but light still find its way in there when it's bright and washes everything out a bit.

06-19-2018, 01:18 PM	#11
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788 Original Poster	Originally posted by chickentender More light-tight than the 67 WLF then? The one on my Pentacon isn't bad, but light still find its way in there when it's bright and washes everything out a bit. Not perfect, but pretty good. There are a few angles where the front seam between the finder and the body will let slip a narrow beam. I haven't tried the P67 WLF in bright light, so I can't compare.

06-19-2018, 01:30 PM	#12
johnha Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lancashire, UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,155	The obvious question is why not use a slower film (I guess there's a reason)? I've had problems focussing through a mono red filter (which loses perhaps 2 stops), if you're shooting mono, wouldn't a set of colour filters be more suitable? Lee filters are very good, but the overall cost (depending on how many filter thread sizes and filters you need/want) certainly adds up very quickly (more more so than Cokin P series).

06-19-2018, 01:45 PM	#13
abruzzi Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New Mexico Posts: 788 Original Poster	I do, but there are limitations. I've been shooting a lot of TMAX 100, but after shooting some Tri-X, I really preferred the tonality. I liked the Fomapan 100 I shot recently, and I'm going to try some more rolls, but depending on who you ask, there are a lot of quality control issues with Fomapan, and I might be happier sticking with a yellow box (though even Kodak has had reliability issues recently.) Additionally, 100 speed is only two stops from 400. Not much ISO 25 film out there. I have a roll of Ilford Pan-F+ at ISO 50 which I'm going to try out. Is there any sub-100 speed color other than the nice but extremely expensive Velvia 50? I guess there is Cinestill, which I've never tried.

06-19-2018, 01:52 PM	#14
Eyewanders Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Land of the Salish Sea Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,343	Originally posted by abruzzi I do, but there are limitations. I've been shooting a lot of TMAX 100, but after shooting some Tri-X, I really preferred the tonality. I liked the Fomapan 100 I shot recently, and I'm going to try some more rolls, but depending on who you ask, there are a lot of quality control issues with Fomapan, and I might be happier sticking with a yellow box (though even Kodak has had reliability issues recently.) Additionally, 100 speed is only two stops from 400. Not much ISO 25 film out there. I have a roll of Ilford Pan-F+ at ISO 50 which I'm going to try out. Is there any sub-100 speed color other than the nice but extremely expensive Velvia 50? I guess there is Cinestill, which I've never tried. Cinestill 50D is lovely stuff. Expensive, but lovely. (Though I've only shot it in 135)

06-19-2018, 01:57 PM	#15
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,092	Originally posted by chickentender Cinestill 50D is lovely stuff. Expensive, but lovely. (Though I've only shot it in 135) I bought a roll in 120 from a local film store, trying to figure out what I want to shoot with it. Cost about twice as much as a roll of Ektar or Portra in 120 and is equivalent to the cost of a roll of Velvia 50! Phil.