Why did pentax give up completly on SLR?

johnha · 03-15-2019, 06:55 PM

I bought a reasonably battered M4 a while back, I'd decided I should try some of the Leica 'magic' and its cosmetic condition seemed to make it affordable with a Voigtlander 40/1.4 lens (could easily be the only film camera & lens I'd need). It's functionally similar an M-A but with a rewind crank that's easy to use - it is well built, my only film Pentax that comes close is the KX. When I bought it from a Leica specialist, the salesman went all gooey over my 'black paint' KX - apparently Leica shooters prefer black paint to black chrome so you can see the brassing properly. Leica M's will probably be the last film cameras you can get reliable servicing for. Leica has always been a low volume high ticket price arrangement, something that helps them continue production at low volumes - it's not as if they need any R&D, each new film camera is the same as the previous one with something removed!

Having seen the complexity of a clockwork self-timer I understand why Pentax removed it from the K1000 - there seems to be dozens of parts, all having to be assembled 'reasonably' accurately to function properly (and prevent binding of the normal shutter release) - and that's a tiny feature likely to be very rarely used. The last LXs sold in the late '90s were nearly £1500 and would have 20yrs inflation even if still manufactured. Used prices for K1000s (and more recently MXs) are topping £150, ME Supers are regularly advertised over £100 (from £20 a couple of years ago).

Any new film Pentax would have to be very special to sell in enough volume to keep prices within reach of the few Pentaxians who'd feel it's a 'must have' or have enough cash to simply want it. It would have to be better than an LX (you could buy a used SP/KX/K1000/MX/LX and have it CLA'd for much much less).

eddie1960 · 03-18-2019, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by johnha

I bought a reasonably battered M4 a while back, I'd decided I should try some of the Leica 'magic' and its cosmetic condition seemed to make it affordable with a Voigtlander 40/1.4 lens (could easily be the only film camera & lens I'd need). It's functionally similar an M-A but with a rewind crank that's easy to use - it is well built, my only film Pentax that comes close is the KX. When I bought it from a Leica specialist, the salesman went all gooey over my 'black paint' KX - apparently Leica shooters prefer black paint to black chrome so you can see the brassing properly. Leica M's will probably be the last film cameras you can get reliable servicing for. Leica has always been a low volume high ticket price arrangement, something that helps them continue production at low volumes - it's not as if they need any R&D, each new film camera is the same as the previous one with something removed!

Having seen the complexity of a clockwork self-timer I understand why Pentax removed it from the K1000 - there seems to be dozens of parts, all having to be assembled 'reasonably' accurately to function properly (and prevent binding of the normal shutter release) - and that's a tiny feature likely to be very rarely used. The last LXs sold in the late '90s were nearly £1500 and would have 20yrs inflation even if still manufactured. Used prices for K1000s (and more recently MXs) are topping £150, ME Supers are regularly advertised over £100 (from £20 a couple of years ago).

Any new film Pentax would have to be very special to sell in enough volume to keep prices within reach of the few Pentaxians who'd feel it's a 'must have' or have enough cash to simply want it. It would have to be better than an LX (you could buy a used SP/KX/K1000/MX/LX and have it CLA'd for much much less).

I am still kicking myself over an M4 I missed out on
a local pawnbroker had an M-4 set with 2 lenses summicron 35 and 50 f2 and 90 2.8 - basically an all Canadian Leica kit. there was a dent in the top which made the reweind crank awkward so service would ultimately have been needed. the lenses we well used but fully functional, i am sure they would have benefitted from a CLA eventually. I knew we had a great Leica repair guy in town who worked the plant when it was open...but i was leaving for Europe later that day. they offered it to me for $900, (around 2009) I wanted it but had to say know.it had sat some time so the day after i got back I went in to buy, it has sold the day before for $850 .....ugh I will never see a deal like that again (though CLA on 3 lenses a new top plate and CLA on camera would have jumped the cost quite a bit and Canadian Leica never sells for as much.

redbirdpete · 03-18-2019, 12:08 PM - **1 Like**

Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature).

nickthetasmaniac · 03-18-2019, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by eddie1960

they offered it to me for $900, (around 2009)

The 35mm Summicron alone is a $1500+ lens...

Last edited by nickthetasmaniac; 03-18-2019 at 06:26 PM.

johnha · 03-18-2019, 05:39 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by redbirdpete

Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature).

There's not really a problem with long term life of AF SLRs, very few are expensive and as long as they work when you buy them and appreciate they have limited life, you can't lose much. Very handy for lenses without aperture rings where manual focus SLRs which can control the aperture are limited in number. Z-1 prices are often ridiculously low given their capability.

**felixkh** · 04-07-2019, 06:53 AM

At least Pentax AF SLRs can still be repaired in Japan by NSB Tekunos. This company is run by former Pentax Technicians and Engineers who were let go by Hoya. I had my MZ-S mirror motor gear replaced by them in 2018.

nickthetasmaniac · 04-07-2019, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by johnha

There's not really a problem with long term life of AF SLRs, very few are expensive and as long as they work when you buy them and appreciate they have limited life, you can't lose much.

That mentality addresses replacement on a failed unit (easy and cheap), but it doesn't address the likelyhood of failure in use, when you don't necessarily have access to buying a replacement...

h.butz · 05-07-2019, 06:13 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by redbirdpete

Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature).

qft. I picked up several MZ-S's and PZ-1p's in near-mint condition for 20% of their original price while bracing for the analog camera apocalypse. I've seen a steady decline in the availability of used film cameras in pristine condition. Now I'm seeing more heavily used cameras being sold for scrap and dwindling avenues for repair (Eric)

i.e. it would be difficult to market a new film SLR for $500 while you can buy a decent used film camera for $20. But, this is just a phase. In less than ten years I expect that only toy cameras will be available for sale. I don't like toy cameras, unless they have a mount for my SLR lenses.

The mantra that "Pentax was late to the DSLR market" is just rubbish. I didn't see that sentiment when Samsung Galaxy followed the iPhone.

I also don't agree that low market demand requires the extinction of a technology. How much demand was there for film photography before the Kodak Instamatic? Sometimes a company needs to create the demand for a product which you didn't you know you needed.

And, (rant continues) I don't agree that old technology is obsolete technology e.g. film. The "Wheel" is roughly 5,520 years old and nobody is complaining that it's obsolete.

Lord Lucan · 05-23-2019, 05:18 AM

Pentax is a niche brand in an ILC market dominated by the giants Canon, Sony and Nikon.
Film cameras are a niche in a market dominated by digital.
New film cameras are a niche in a market dominated by used film cameras available in droves on ebay.
For Pentax to resume making film cameras they would be tooling up for a niche market within a niche market within a niche market.

**Alex645** · 05-23-2019, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

For Pentax to resume making film cameras they would be tooling up for a niche market within a niche market within a niche market.

True, but wouldn't that be niche?

h.butz · 05-23-2019, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Alex645

True, but wouldn't that be niche?

You mean like vinyl records? bah. Who buys vinyl records and tube amplifiers anymore?
/sarcasm

**ChrisPlatt** · 05-23-2019, 06:22 AM

It may outsell film, but digital is becoming a niche market as well.

Chris

h.butz · 05-23-2019, 06:36 AM

I'm getting a kick out of Canon's steadily declining sales of their digital SLR's since consumers are just using the camera in their phones. So, the big market push is now "mirrorless" cameras to try to get consumers back.. you know, because mirrorless cameras are "better" than DSLR's.

**monochrome** · 05-23-2019, 09:53 AM

It shouldn’t be a surprise that people are using InstaPhones to take snapshots. They always have.

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03-15-2019, 06:55 PM	#46
johnha Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lancashire, UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,155	I bought a reasonably battered M4 a while back, I'd decided I should try some of the Leica 'magic' and its cosmetic condition seemed to make it affordable with a Voigtlander 40/1.4 lens (could easily be the only film camera & lens I'd need). It's functionally similar an M-A but with a rewind crank that's easy to use - it is well built, my only film Pentax that comes close is the KX. When I bought it from a Leica specialist, the salesman went all gooey over my 'black paint' KX - apparently Leica shooters prefer black paint to black chrome so you can see the brassing properly. Leica M's will probably be the last film cameras you can get reliable servicing for. Leica has always been a low volume high ticket price arrangement, something that helps them continue production at low volumes - it's not as if they need any R&D, each new film camera is the same as the previous one with something removed! Having seen the complexity of a clockwork self-timer I understand why Pentax removed it from the K1000 - there seems to be dozens of parts, all having to be assembled 'reasonably' accurately to function properly (and prevent binding of the normal shutter release) - and that's a tiny feature likely to be very rarely used. The last LXs sold in the late '90s were nearly £1500 and would have 20yrs inflation even if still manufactured. Used prices for K1000s (and more recently MXs) are topping £150, ME Supers are regularly advertised over £100 (from £20 a couple of years ago). Any new film Pentax would have to be very special to sell in enough volume to keep prices within reach of the few Pentaxians who'd feel it's a 'must have' or have enough cash to simply want it. It would have to be better than an LX (you could buy a used SP/KX/K1000/MX/LX and have it CLA'd for much much less).

03-18-2019, 07:01 AM	#47
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by johnha I bought a reasonably battered M4 a while back, I'd decided I should try some of the Leica 'magic' and its cosmetic condition seemed to make it affordable with a Voigtlander 40/1.4 lens (could easily be the only film camera & lens I'd need). It's functionally similar an M-A but with a rewind crank that's easy to use - it is well built, my only film Pentax that comes close is the KX. When I bought it from a Leica specialist, the salesman went all gooey over my 'black paint' KX - apparently Leica shooters prefer black paint to black chrome so you can see the brassing properly. Leica M's will probably be the last film cameras you can get reliable servicing for. Leica has always been a low volume high ticket price arrangement, something that helps them continue production at low volumes - it's not as if they need any R&D, each new film camera is the same as the previous one with something removed! Having seen the complexity of a clockwork self-timer I understand why Pentax removed it from the K1000 - there seems to be dozens of parts, all having to be assembled 'reasonably' accurately to function properly (and prevent binding of the normal shutter release) - and that's a tiny feature likely to be very rarely used. The last LXs sold in the late '90s were nearly £1500 and would have 20yrs inflation even if still manufactured. Used prices for K1000s (and more recently MXs) are topping £150, ME Supers are regularly advertised over £100 (from £20 a couple of years ago). Any new film Pentax would have to be very special to sell in enough volume to keep prices within reach of the few Pentaxians who'd feel it's a 'must have' or have enough cash to simply want it. It would have to be better than an LX (you could buy a used SP/KX/K1000/MX/LX and have it CLA'd for much much less). I am still kicking myself over an M4 I missed out on a local pawnbroker had an M-4 set with 2 lenses summicron 35 and 50 f2 and 90 2.8 - basically an all Canadian Leica kit. there was a dent in the top which made the reweind crank awkward so service would ultimately have been needed. the lenses we well used but fully functional, i am sure they would have benefitted from a CLA eventually. I knew we had a great Leica repair guy in town who worked the plant when it was open...but i was leaving for Europe later that day. they offered it to me for $900, (around 2009) I wanted it but had to say know.it had sat some time so the day after i got back I went in to buy, it has sold the day before for $850 .....ugh I will never see a deal like that again (though CLA on 3 lenses a new top plate and CLA on camera would have jumped the cost quite a bit and Canadian Leica never sells for as much.

03-18-2019, 12:08 PM - 1 Like	#48
redbirdpete Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Gwynedd, Wales Posts: 89	Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature).

03-18-2019, 05:04 PM	#49
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	Originally posted by eddie1960 they offered it to me for $900, (around 2009) The 35mm Summicron alone is a $1500+ lens... Last edited by nickthetasmaniac; 03-18-2019 at 06:26 PM.

03-18-2019, 05:39 PM - 1 Like	#50
johnha Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lancashire, UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,155	Originally posted by redbirdpete Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature). There's not really a problem with long term life of AF SLRs, very few are expensive and as long as they work when you buy them and appreciate they have limited life, you can't lose much. Very handy for lenses without aperture rings where manual focus SLRs which can control the aperture are limited in number. Z-1 prices are often ridiculously low given their capability.

04-07-2019, 06:53 AM	#51
felixkh Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,201	At least Pentax AF SLRs can still be repaired in Japan by NSB Tekunos. This company is run by former Pentax Technicians and Engineers who were let go by Hoya. I had my MZ-S mirror motor gear replaced by them in 2018.

04-07-2019, 03:02 PM	#52
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	Originally posted by johnha There's not really a problem with long term life of AF SLRs, very few are expensive and as long as they work when you buy them and appreciate they have limited life, you can't lose much. That mentality addresses replacement on a failed unit (easy and cheap), but it doesn't address the likelyhood of failure in use, when you don't necessarily have access to buying a replacement...

05-07-2019, 06:13 AM - 1 Like	#53
h.butz Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Long Island New York USA Posts: 52	Originally posted by redbirdpete Surely any attempt to produce a new film SLR would fail due to the vast amount of quality SLR's available for less than 10% of original cost? OK, with Pentax there is the problem that their later autofocus SLR's have long term survival problems, but I was able to pick up a fully functional z-1 for £20. (It only works when there is film in it - don't know if that is an original feature). qft. I picked up several MZ-S's and PZ-1p's in near-mint condition for 20% of their original price while bracing for the analog camera apocalypse. I've seen a steady decline in the availability of used film cameras in pristine condition. Now I'm seeing more heavily used cameras being sold for scrap and dwindling avenues for repair (Eric) i.e. it would be difficult to market a new film SLR for $500 while you can buy a decent used film camera for $20. But, this is just a phase. In less than ten years I expect that only toy cameras will be available for sale. I don't like toy cameras, unless they have a mount for my SLR lenses. The mantra that "Pentax was late to the DSLR market" is just rubbish. I didn't see that sentiment when Samsung Galaxy followed the iPhone. I also don't agree that low market demand requires the extinction of a technology. How much demand was there for film photography before the Kodak Instamatic? Sometimes a company needs to create the demand for a product which you didn't you know you needed. And, (rant continues) I don't agree that old technology is obsolete technology e.g. film. The "Wheel" is roughly 5,520 years old and nobody is complaining that it's obsolete.

05-23-2019, 05:18 AM	#54
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,963	Pentax is a niche brand in an ILC market dominated by the giants Canon, Sony and Nikon. Film cameras are a niche in a market dominated by digital. New film cameras are a niche in a market dominated by used film cameras available in droves on ebay. For Pentax to resume making film cameras they would be tooling up for a niche market within a niche market within a niche market.

05-23-2019, 05:54 AM	#55
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Originally posted by Lord Lucan For Pentax to resume making film cameras they would be tooling up for a niche market within a niche market within a niche market. True, but wouldn't that be niche?

05-23-2019, 06:01 AM	#56
h.butz Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Long Island New York USA Posts: 52	Originally posted by Alex645 True, but wouldn't that be niche? You mean like vinyl records? bah. Who buys vinyl records and tube amplifiers anymore? /sarcasm

05-23-2019, 06:22 AM	#57
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,694	It may outsell film, but digital is becoming a niche market as well. Chris

05-23-2019, 06:36 AM	#58
h.butz Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Long Island New York USA Posts: 52	I'm getting a kick out of Canon's steadily declining sales of their digital SLR's since consumers are just using the camera in their phones. So, the big market push is now "mirrorless" cameras to try to get consumers back.. you know, because mirrorless cameras are "better" than DSLR's.

05-23-2019, 09:53 AM	#59
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	It shouldn’t be a surprise that people are using InstaPhones to take snapshots. They always have.