Dynamic Range, Film vs. Digital

**RGlasel** · 05-04-2019, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Ranchu

The benefit is that you can shoot difficult subjects at will,

Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind.

**richard0170** · 05-04-2019, 10:45 AM - **1 Like**

Who needs more dynamic range than this? XP2 Plus commercially processed and scanned, subsequently digitally processed.

**Rondec** · 05-04-2019, 02:29 PM

Film and digital are different. But if you are dependent on a lab to develop your images and want to shoot color film, then digital can be quite a bit easier. Not necessarily more rewarding.

I will say that with regard to resolution, I never could get more than 8-ish megapixels of resolution out of my 35mm negatives...

AntonioS · 05-04-2019, 03:26 PM

I get pretty decent 12 megapixels images from a 35mm negative with my venerable Konica Minolta dImage Scan dual IV at 3200 dpi.
On the other hand, my Epson V700 sucks compared to it, even using fluid mount, custom film holders and anti newton glass to make the film flat....

Here some from the Minolta.

Last edited by AntonioS; 05-04-2019 at 03:33 PM.

nickthetasmaniac · 05-04-2019, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Alex645

d) Why 100 ISO? Higher ISO films, such as 400 ISO, have a much greater dynamic range (and exposure latitude).

Can you expand on this? First time I've heard someone argue a 400iso film will have much greater dynamic range and exposure latitude than a 100iso film (all else being equal of course)... I always believed the opposite to be true.

**Alex645** · 05-04-2019, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac

Can you expand on this? First time I've heard someone argue a 400iso film will have much greater dynamic range and exposure latitude than a 100iso film (all else being equal of course)... I always believed the opposite to be true.

With film, the higher the ISO, the greater the exposure latitude. That is one reason, for example, disposable cameras without light meters were loaded with 800 ISO neg films. They are very forgiving in exposure error and as seen in the OP video, can handle the over exposures, but then are high enough to handle the under better.

The king of exposure latitude has got to be Ilford XP2+ as it can be shot at EI 100-1600 without push or pull processing.

Based on the OP linked video, it shows there is confusion between dynamic range and exposure latitude. The dynamic range does in fact decrease with higher ISO, but the exposure latitude increases with higher ISO.

tuco · 05-04-2019, 04:52 PM - **1 Like**

You can get more dynamic range when you develop film yourself and employ highlight compression techniques from the zone system. And you can get more DR from many sensors by converting to monochrome I feel. When you pull up some the buried engineering DR too far you get color shifts and noise. But those color shifts look fine in BW.

Employing highlight compression on film.

LesDMess · 05-04-2019, 05:25 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by RGlasel

Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind.

Of course the Pentax LX's unequaled light meter is still the only camera ever made - film or digital, that can aperture priority autoexpose a scene for as long as it takes while monitoring the scene for changes in lighting and adjusting accordingly. With this I can take super long night time exposures with no problems. In addition, the LX's superbright and lifesize viewfinder makes attaining critical manual focus in these dark situations very easy.

Hoover Dam at night on Kodak Ektar 100 about 45minutes using the LX's aperture priority mode.

AntonioS · 05-04-2019, 05:35 PM

Add to this something called reciprocity law.

LesDMess · 05-04-2019, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by AntonioS

Add to this something called reciprocity law.

Fortunately, I have not encountered any issues with all the color negatives I have used for exposures lasting many hours long.

AntonioS · 05-04-2019, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by LesDMess

Fortunately, I have not encountered any issues with all the color negatives I have used for exposures lasting many hours long.

Great, great image !

tuco · 05-04-2019, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by richard0170

Who needs more dynamic range than this? XP2 Plus commercially processed and scanned, subsequently digitally processed.

Everything is a gray scale except the sky. It is purple in that first one. It's kind of strange. Is that intentional?

j0n4hpk · 05-04-2019, 07:39 PM

I tend to agree with Alex645 opinion that digital image sensors in many DSLR cameras tend to be more like slide film... with the exception that (on my K10D), "metering for the shadows" in digital is a better strategy than the "metering for the highlights" technique used with slide film.

Ranchu · 05-04-2019, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind.

Holes in hair, holes in faces, holes in water, holes in window reflections, holes in ice, holes in cars, holes in white shirts, holes in backlit hair. What have you been taking pictures of for 35 years?

Holes in drapes, holes in lights, holes in people's glasses, holes in every picture.

---------- Post added 05-04-19 at 09:05 PM ----------

We can just compare these pictures,

Monthly Photo Contests - PentaxForums.com

to these,

:cool: Lets see those ''film'' shots - Page 1260 - PentaxForums.com

(tuco's and LesDmess' too, hadn't seen that far when I posted this..)

Also, 'Broadway Danny Rose' is on amazon prime, the tones are gorgeous, highly recommended just for the visual experience. I'd link some youtube but they all look like garbage.

tuco · 05-04-2019, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Ranchu

Holes in hair, holes in faces, holes in water, holes in window reflections, holes in ice, holes in cars, holes in white shirts, holes in backlit hair. What have you been taking pictures of for 35 years?

Holes in drapes, holes in lights, holes in people's glasses, holes in every picture.

---------- Post added 05-04-19 at 09:05 PM ----------

We can just compare these pictures,

Monthly Photo Contests - PentaxForums.com

to these,

:cool: Lets see those ''film'' shots - Page 1260 - PentaxForums.com

(tuco's and LesDmess' too, hadn't seen that far when I posted this..)

Also, 'Broadway Danny Rose' is on amazon prime, the tones are gorgeous, highly recommended just for the visual experience. I'd link some youtube but they all look like garbage.

My digital camera advertises 14.8 stops of engineering DR. Subtract 2 or 3 stops to get photographers DR. Of all the posts here I suspect none know how many stops of light they captured. Built in light meters do not tell you that. But my one degree spot meter does. And it says I'm getting 14 stops typically. And I pretty sure I get more when I go extreme on the compression.

05-04-2019, 07:58 PM	#29
Ranchu Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 151	Originally posted by RGlasel Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind. Holes in hair, holes in faces, holes in water, holes in window reflections, holes in ice, holes in cars, holes in white shirts, holes in backlit hair. What have you been taking pictures of for 35 years? Holes in drapes, holes in lights, holes in people's glasses, holes in every picture. ---------- Post added 05-04-19 at 09:05 PM ---------- We can just compare these pictures, Monthly Photo Contests - PentaxForums.com to these, :cool: Lets see those ''film'' shots - Page 1260 - PentaxForums.com (tuco's and LesDmess' too, hadn't seen that far when I posted this..) Also, 'Broadway Danny Rose' is on amazon prime, the tones are gorgeous, highly recommended just for the visual experience. I'd link some youtube but they all look like garbage. Last edited by Ranchu; 05-04-2019 at 08:09 PM.

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05-04-2019, 10:32 AM	#16
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by Ranchu The benefit is that you can shoot difficult subjects at will, Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind.

05-04-2019, 10:45 AM - 1 Like	#17
richard0170 Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,032	Who needs more dynamic range than this? XP2 Plus commercially processed and scanned, subsequently digitally processed.

05-04-2019, 02:29 PM	#18
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Film and digital are different. But if you are dependent on a lab to develop your images and want to shoot color film, then digital can be quite a bit easier. Not necessarily more rewarding. I will say that with regard to resolution, I never could get more than 8-ish megapixels of resolution out of my 35mm negatives...

05-04-2019, 03:26 PM	#19
AntonioS Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Rio de Janeiro Photos: Albums Posts: 113	I get pretty decent 12 megapixels images from a 35mm negative with my venerable Konica Minolta dImage Scan dual IV at 3200 dpi. On the other hand, my Epson V700 sucks compared to it, even using fluid mount, custom film holders and anti newton glass to make the film flat.... Here some from the Minolta. Last edited by AntonioS; 05-04-2019 at 03:33 PM.

05-04-2019, 03:50 PM	#20
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	Originally posted by Alex645 d) Why 100 ISO? Higher ISO films, such as 400 ISO, have a much greater dynamic range (and exposure latitude). Can you expand on this? First time I've heard someone argue a 400iso film will have much greater dynamic range and exposure latitude than a 100iso film (all else being equal of course)... I always believed the opposite to be true.

05-04-2019, 04:15 PM	#21
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Originally posted by nickthetasmaniac Can you expand on this? First time I've heard someone argue a 400iso film will have much greater dynamic range and exposure latitude than a 100iso film (all else being equal of course)... I always believed the opposite to be true. With film, the higher the ISO, the greater the exposure latitude. That is one reason, for example, disposable cameras without light meters were loaded with 800 ISO neg films. They are very forgiving in exposure error and as seen in the OP video, can handle the over exposures, but then are high enough to handle the under better. The king of exposure latitude has got to be Ilford XP2+ as it can be shot at EI 100-1600 without push or pull processing. Based on the OP linked video, it shows there is confusion between dynamic range and exposure latitude. The dynamic range does in fact decrease with higher ISO, but the exposure latitude increases with higher ISO.

05-04-2019, 04:52 PM - 1 Like	#22
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	You can get more dynamic range when you develop film yourself and employ highlight compression techniques from the zone system. And you can get more DR from many sensors by converting to monochrome I feel. When you pull up some the buried engineering DR too far you get color shifts and noise. But those color shifts look fine in BW. Employing highlight compression on film.

05-04-2019, 05:25 PM - 1 Like	#23
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Originally posted by RGlasel Difficult subjects like sunspots? If you want to take long exposures and you don't have access to a light meter, I guess it is conceivable that 10 stops of latitude could be a benefit. In 45 years of using 35mm film, I have never been overexposed by more than 3 or 4 stops, even using a Braun rangefinder without a light meter. On the other hand, the benefits of a digital camera in low light situations are so obvious, it blows my mind. Of course the Pentax LX's unequaled light meter is still the only camera ever made - film or digital, that can aperture priority autoexpose a scene for as long as it takes while monitoring the scene for changes in lighting and adjusting accordingly. With this I can take super long night time exposures with no problems. In addition, the LX's superbright and lifesize viewfinder makes attaining critical manual focus in these dark situations very easy. Hoover Dam at night on Kodak Ektar 100 about 45minutes using the LX's aperture priority mode.

05-04-2019, 05:35 PM	#24
AntonioS Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Rio de Janeiro Photos: Albums Posts: 113	Add to this something called reciprocity law.

05-04-2019, 05:44 PM	#25
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Originally posted by AntonioS Add to this something called reciprocity law. Fortunately, I have not encountered any issues with all the color negatives I have used for exposures lasting many hours long.

05-04-2019, 06:30 PM	#26
AntonioS Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Rio de Janeiro Photos: Albums Posts: 113	Originally posted by LesDMess Fortunately, I have not encountered any issues with all the color negatives I have used for exposures lasting many hours long. Great, great image !

05-04-2019, 06:55 PM	#27
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by richard0170 Who needs more dynamic range than this? XP2 Plus commercially processed and scanned, subsequently digitally processed. Everything is a gray scale except the sky. It is purple in that first one. It's kind of strange. Is that intentional?

05-04-2019, 07:39 PM	#28
j0n4hpk Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 293	I tend to agree with Alex645 opinion that digital image sensors in many DSLR cameras tend to be more like slide film... with the exception that (on my K10D), "metering for the shadows" in digital is a better strategy than the "metering for the highlights" technique used with slide film.

05-04-2019, 09:37 PM	#30
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by Ranchu Holes in hair, holes in faces, holes in water, holes in window reflections, holes in ice, holes in cars, holes in white shirts, holes in backlit hair. What have you been taking pictures of for 35 years? Holes in drapes, holes in lights, holes in people's glasses, holes in every picture. ---------- Post added 05-04-19 at 09:05 PM ---------- We can just compare these pictures, Monthly Photo Contests - PentaxForums.com to these, :cool: Lets see those ''film'' shots - Page 1260 - PentaxForums.com (tuco's and LesDmess' too, hadn't seen that far when I posted this..) Also, 'Broadway Danny Rose' is on amazon prime, the tones are gorgeous, highly recommended just for the visual experience. I'd link some youtube but they all look like garbage. My digital camera advertises 14.8 stops of engineering DR. Subtract 2 or 3 stops to get photographers DR. Of all the posts here I suspect none know how many stops of light they captured. Built in light meters do not tell you that. But my one degree spot meter does. And it says I'm getting 14 stops typically. And I pretty sure I get more when I go extreme on the compression.