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10-20-2020, 11:39 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I think I know, but what is the explanation for one stop over on this one?


Steve
Leaf shutter lenses at 1/500th are not very accurate and like Portra 400, you can shoot 400H at EI250 fine in my experience with the film so far.


Last edited by tuco; 10-20-2020 at 11:45 AM.
10-20-2020, 02:16 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
Two thoughts on working with Sunny Sixteen:

Just in case you haven't noticed, the aperture and shutter speed clicks' on your lens and camera are not 'whole stops', but are typically 1/3-stop intervals. It's sort of like knowing the multiplication tables; if you're not familiar with 'em it's very easy to make mistakes in selecting equivalent exposure intervals. A search on 'f-stop charts' offers many cheat sheets like these.


There's a useful exercise that's a PITA on film but becomes a quick and inexpensive project with digital camera technology. Build a comprehensive Sunny Sixteen matrix using whatever variables factors you prefer on paper -- that helps to stay organized and to troubleshoot and understand the inevitable mistakes.

E.g., a chart that fixes the ISO or light conditions and steps through equivalent apertures and speeds. Or one that fixes aperture and/or speed and changes ISO for a given light condition, etc. Each question you have about exposure can be expressed as a charted exercise.

With film, the delay in darkroom processing before seeing the results was frustrating. Opening an SD card in a browser with side-by-side image comparison and histogram cues is immediately enlightening.

Don't be surprised if supposedly equivalent exposure settings aren't absolutely exact, especially at the far ends of the dial; the mechanical monkey-motion of camera innards isn't always precise. Discovering those variances in your gear and building individual calibration charts for bodies, lenses and light metering systems is part of the 'fun'.

Use mid-morning north sky light on a clear day as a good light calibration reference for metering systems of all sorts. Old selenium cell light meters often have a mind of their own regarding light conditions but can be used effectively if calibrated to a personal standard.

The key to all is having a WRITTEN PLAN before you start. Without that you'd best add a white cane to your gear bag.
Thank you so much for this great explanation .

For the chart you attached, it seems both my camera and lens are whole stops.

Now Iíve got that cleared out of my mind. Thank you greatly.

---------- Post added 10-20-20 at 02:23 PM ----------

Ok,

So yesterday, very clear sky, not a single cloud to be seen. Though the timed of day was about 3:30pm. In the Island of kyushu in japan.

I took 4 similar shots, starting with f/16, f/11, f/8 and f/5.6. All at 1/500 with the roll still being tri-x400, so ISO 400.

Iíll post all these shots when developed.

Regards
10-21-2020, 11:34 AM   #33
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Other SS tricks:

There's a natural tendency to focus on the LIGHT. Pay attention to the SHADOWS. Just as there's a difference between 'crispy' light and hazy light, there's also a difference in the shadows that they produce. There can easily be a half- to a full-stop of exposure compensation revealed in the type and presence of shadows and they're often more subtle clues to exposure adjustments than direct light.

In open lighting conditions you will see 'crispy' shadows in 'crispy' light and 'fuzzy-edged' shadows in hazy light. (Or multiple shadows from more than one source, but that's a different topic.)

In open shade, or not in direct light, like under a tree on a sunny day, your subject may have enough incidental or reflected illumination to cast a shadow . . . or perhaps not. (Reflected light can unexpectedly screw with color balance too)

[ Exercises? Easy. Just start paying attention to shadows. After years of practice you'll be able to judge exactly how old a shadow is or how many hours ago it left the scene. ]


Also, there are situations where it will be more convenient, or perhaps even necessary, to estimate (or meter) an equivalent scene.

Given the same lighting conditions, a similar subject will require the same exposure whether near at hand or at a distance. A uniformed player on the sidelines will have the same exposure as one across the playing field or court. The basic exposure will not vary unless the light does so there's no need to 'meter' every shot unless something changes.

Last edited by pacerr; 10-21-2020 at 02:05 PM.
10-21-2020, 05:38 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
Other SS tricks:

There's a natural tendency to focus on the LIGHT. Pay attention to the SHADOWS. Just as there's a difference between 'crispy' light and hazy light, there's also a difference in the shadows that they produce. There can easily be a half- to a full-stop of exposure compensation revealed in the type and presence of shadows and they're often more subtle clues to exposure adjustments than direct light.

In open lighting conditions you will see 'crispy' shadows in 'crispy' light and 'fuzzy-edged' shadows in hazy light. (Or multiple shadows from more than one source, but that's a different topic.)

In open shade, or not in direct light, like under a tree on a sunny day, your subject may have enough incidental or reflected illumination to cast a shadow . . . or perhaps not. (Reflected light can unexpectedly screw with color balance too)

[ Exercises? Easy. Just start paying attention to shadows. After years of practice you'll be able to judge exactly how old a shadow is or how many hours ago it left the scene. ]


Also, there are situations where it will be more convenient, or perhaps even necessary, to estimate (or meter) an equivalent scene.

Given the same lighting conditions, a similar subject will require the same exposure whether near at hand or at a distance. A uniformed player on the sidelines will have the same exposure as one across the playing field or court. The basic exposure will not vary unless the light does so there's no need to 'meter' every shot unless something changes.
Thank you very much for this wonderful comment. I am still processing the content.
But, if I were to be in an open field, with the just the sky above, and a big three in the middle, casting its shadow somewhere, using the Sunny 16 as my guide, will give me a correct exposure, no? Or same setting, using my TTL meter in my K1000 and pointing it at the three, the light that the meter would read would be from the incidental light given by the sun and therefor be correct?

Am I getting somewhere here??

regards

10-22-2020, 05:05 PM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteQuote:
Am I getting somewhere here??. . . if I were to be in an open field, with the just the sky above, and a big three in the middle, casting its shadow somewhere, using the Sunny 16 as my guide,will give me a correct exposure, no? Or same setting, using my TTL meter in my K1000 and pointing it at the three, the light that the meter would read would be from the incidental light given by the sun and therefor be correct?
Getting there? Certainly seems so. You're asking the right questions. Hang in there - experience counts.

I've often wished that Kodak film boxes had never published the Sunny Sixteen guide because it suggests that somehow bright sun and f-16 are the critical point of the matter. SS is nothing more than a memory aid that aperture and shutter speed have a reciprocal relationship and that offers a generic description of daylight conditions perhaps more appropriate to the family Kodak Brownie box camera of the '50's than modern cameras.

Let's break down your question a bit. First, where you're standing has no bearing on the matter, it's all about the light on your subject and how you evaluate it as applied to your goal(s) for the image. Within reason, it's your goals that define 'a correct exposure'. Did the end result accomplish what you intended? (And, yes, after post-processing too, whether in digital or a wet darkroom.)

As a caution here, we need to recognize that the term 'incidental' (incident) lighting has a very specific meaning for metering. Briefly, incident light is when you meter facing the light source(s) compared to reflective light which is metered as it's reflected from the subject itself. Both types have their uses.

Using SS is a personal evaluation of the light, the desired result, the gear used and combined with experience. It can be the perfect solution . . . or not.

Then we must take into account the four possible types of electronic metering in use.

Light meters come in many forms, incident, reflective or combined, hand-held and TTL. Each of them have but four modes.

- Spot metering which may vary from about a 15 degree cone to a 1-degree pencil beam. Using it require metering many critical points in the scene and compiling a desired average exposure that, hopefully, neither clips highlights or shadows. Spot metering arguably requires the most experience.

- Averaging which samples the entire scene and provides an indiscriminate average exposure recommendation. If not tweaked, it may be less useful than an educated SS guess.

- Center weighted averaging which gives more weight to selected zones within the scene. Not a bad choice for many scenes. It often biases the top quarter of the image and the corners as appropriate for snapshots, landscapes and 'family group' photos in consumer level auto cameras. This is most like your K1000.

- Multi-zone 'auto intelligent' metering which samples many discrete zones in the scene, recognizes typical patterns of light, and biases exposure on its best guess of the scene. Sort'a like face recognition. That's typical of most modern auto-TTL metering bodies. When it's right it equals expert SS decisions.

Modern electronic metering may also allow you to bias the exposure to favor higher shutter speed for action or smaller apertures for depth of field as for landscapes. This is simply automatically applying SS reciprocal exchange settings in the camera. (that's what Scene Modes do, too; they apply recommended biases and tweaks to 'normal' exposure settings)

As for your question, yes, the K1000 would provide a meter reading for a reflected (not incident) light solution for the scene. BUT... it would be a center averaged reading of ALL the light seen TTL. That may average out OK for you - maybe not.

A better solution would be to close in and meter off of only the primary subject and manually lock that solution before recomposing the scene. Or, if that's inconvenient, meter off of a nearby equivalent subject in similar lighting.

Any modern DSLR serves as a fine handheld meter with the dual advantage of an immediate image preview with histogram and 'blinkies' assistence. Matching film shots one-for-one with digital images is a great learning tool. You have twin images with digital EXIF data for comparison - something not available with film.

You do need to first calibrate all gear and meters to the same standard. A clear or hazy mid-day north sky works well as a cross-calibration light source. Cameras may be synced by tweaking the ISO dial or, on bodies that read the cassette matrix, just use a calibration cheat-sheet. This may take some homework before hand.


[ One really nice, comprehensive resource is Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure" -- often found used on Amazon books ]

Last edited by pacerr; 10-22-2020 at 05:18 PM.
10-22-2020, 06:30 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harbaror Quote
using my TTL meter in my K1000 and pointing it at the three, the light that the meter would read would be from the incidental light given by the sun and therefor be correct?
It will give you an average reading for light entering the camera within the frame. For your example, that would be a reflected light measurement. How correct it will be depends on what part of the frame is important to you. If everything but the shadows, it should be quite appropriate.


Steve
10-22-2020, 06:51 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
Getting there? Certainly seems so. You're asking the right questions. Hang in there - experience counts.

I've often wished that Kodak film boxes had never published the Sunny Sixteen guide because it suggests that somehow bright sun and f-16 are the critical point of the matter. SS is nothing more than a memory aid that aperture and shutter speed have a reciprocal relationship and that offers a generic description of daylight conditions perhaps more appropriate to the family Kodak Brownie box camera of the '50's than modern cameras.

Let's break down your question a bit. First, where you're standing has no bearing on the matter, it's all about the light on your subject and how you evaluate it as applied to your goal(s) for the image. Within reason, it's your goals that define 'a correct exposure'. Did the end result accomplish what you intended? (And, yes, after post-processing too, whether in digital or a wet darkroom.)

As a caution here, we need to recognize that the term 'incidental' (incident) lighting has a very specific meaning for metering. Briefly, incident light is when you meter facing the light source(s) compared to reflective light which is metered as it's reflected from the subject itself. Both types have their uses.

Using SS is a personal evaluation of the light, the desired result, the gear used and combined with experience. It can be the perfect solution . . . or not.

Then we must take into account the four possible types of electronic metering in use.

Light meters come in many forms, incident, reflective or combined, hand-held and TTL. Each of them have but four modes.

- Spot metering which may vary from about a 15 degree cone to a 1-degree pencil beam. Using it require metering many critical points in the scene and compiling a desired average exposure that, hopefully, neither clips highlights or shadows. Spot metering arguably requires the most experience.

- Averaging which samples the entire scene and provides an indiscriminate average exposure recommendation. If not tweaked, it may be less useful than an educated SS guess.

- Center weighted averaging which gives more weight to selected zones within the scene. Not a bad choice for many scenes. It often biases the top quarter of the image and the corners as appropriate for snapshots, landscapes and 'family group' photos in consumer level auto cameras. This is most like your K1000.

- Multi-zone 'auto intelligent' metering which samples many discrete zones in the scene, recognizes typical patterns of light, and biases exposure on its best guess of the scene. Sort'a like face recognition. That's typical of most modern auto-TTL metering bodies. When it's right it equals expert SS decisions.

Modern electronic metering may also allow you to bias the exposure to favor higher shutter speed for action or smaller apertures for depth of field as for landscapes. This is simply automatically applying SS reciprocal exchange settings in the camera. (that's what Scene Modes do, too; they apply recommended biases and tweaks to 'normal' exposure settings)

As for your question, yes, the K1000 would provide a meter reading for a reflected (not incident) light solution for the scene. BUT... it would be a center averaged reading of ALL the light seen TTL. That may average out OK for you - maybe not.

A better solution would be to close in and meter off of only the primary subject and manually lock that solution before recomposing the scene. Or, if that's inconvenient, meter off of a nearby equivalent subject in similar lighting.

Any modern DSLR serves as a fine handheld meter with the dual advantage of an immediate image preview with histogram and 'blinkies' assistence. Matching film shots one-for-one with digital images is a great learning tool. You have twin images with digital EXIF data for comparison - something not available with film.

You do need to first calibrate all gear and meters to the same standard. A clear or hazy mid-day north sky works well as a cross-calibration light source. Cameras may be synced by tweaking the ISO dial or, on bodies that read the cassette matrix, just use a calibration cheat-sheet. This may take some homework before hand.


[ One really nice, comprehensive resource is Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure" -- often found used on Amazon books ]
Well, a fine read indeed.
I think that what I truly need to do, is take photos. I've read too much, and asked too many questions, but not taken enough photos yet. Somehow I want to make sure I understood the basics, and as far as aperture/ shutter speed and ASA/ ISO goes, I got them figured out. The only thing I have trouble understanding, is Light. And I will never truly learn about light until I take more photos and see the results with the gear and film I am using.

I am truly grateful to all who have commented and given me wonderful advice, now I will try my best to produce something OK, what ever that means.

My problem is, I've been searching for perfect, when in fact perfection doesn't and shouldn't exist in photography.

Regards
10-22-2020, 08:03 PM   #38
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This blog has a scan of the old instruction sheet for Tri-X from 1981. I thought I might still have a few somewhere but I think I threw them out because silverfish or something had chewed them up.

Kodak Tri-X info sheet from 1981 : Down the Road

From the chart:
1/500 second:
Bright or Hazy Sun on Light Sand or Snow - f/22

1/250 second
Bright or Hazy Sun (Distinct Shadows - f/22* (f/11 at 1/250 for backlighted close-up subjects)
Cloudy Bright (No Shadows) - f/11
Heavy Overcast - f/8
Open Shadow (Subject shaded from the sun but lighted by a large area of sky) - f/8

10-22-2020, 08:42 PM   #39
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Here is a valid question.

How does the Pentax K1000 meter light using the TTL metering system work?
How does it meter it? Using reflected light? So if I point the camera to a white building, with lights hitting it, the TTL will meter the reflective light coming from it? Right? So in the same scene, instead of pointing the camera at the white bright building, I point it at the shadow it gives, the TTL will meter the reflected light of the shadow, and therefor give me a different reading? Is that correct?

regards

---------- Post added 10-22-20 at 08:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
This blog has a scan of the old instruction sheet for Tri-X from 1981. I thought I might still have a few somewhere but I think I threw them out because silverfish or something had chewed them up.

Kodak Tri-X info sheet from 1981 : Down the Road

From the chart:
1/500 second:
Bright or Hazy Sun on Light Sand or Snow - f/22

1/250 second
Bright or Hazy Sun (Distinct Shadows - f/22* (f/11 at 1/250 for backlighted close-up subjects)
Cloudy Bright (No Shadows) - f/11
Heavy Overcast - f/8
Open Shadow (Subject shaded from the sun but lighted by a large area of sky) - f/8
Thanks a lot for that.

regards
10-22-2020, 09:14 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Harbaror Quote
How does the Pentax K1000 meter light using the TTL metering system work?
The two sensors are either side of the viewfinder eyepiece and measure the brightness of the focusing screen. Calibration is such that the meter will center when the amount of light is sufficient to produce a "middle" value on the negative. There are implications to this calibration in that metering a snowfield to a middle value will result in the snow being several stops underexposed. A dark subject will likewise meter to be overexposed. A scene with a full range of values from dark shadows to bright highlights may see clipping on either end. That is what stands in the way of finding the perfect (accurate) metering.

I recommend Ansel Adams, The Negative. Most good libraries will have a copy. It is probably the best resource I am aware in terms of presenting a practical approach to exposure. Learn the basics of what he has to teach and "sunny 16" makes sense in a practical way. Learn a little deeper and the relationship between processing and actual ISO film speed makes sense in a practical way. Understand and digital capture and dynamic range fall into place as well. Realize that the aim of proper exposure is the retention detail needed to meet the photographer's artistic intent.

https://www.amazon.com/Negative-Ansel-Adams-Photography/dp/0821221868?tag=pentaxforums-20&


Steve

(...that book changed how I did my photography...)
10-23-2020, 04:56 PM - 1 Like   #41
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You can also meter off something that is getting the same light but is a different color or shade (like shades of gray, not in the shade) to tweak your exposure...

An 18% gray card was the preferred thing when I was younger, but I always just used the palm of my hand, which was pretty close... and I always had it with me

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10-23-2020, 05:57 PM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
An 18% gray card was the preferred thing when I was younger, but I always just used the palm of my hand, which was pretty close... and I always had it with me
Depending, of course, on one's skin color. Green grass is also a good substitute. I still carry a gray card and use it for both estimation of incident light as well as as for inclusion of a gray reference for white balance in PP.


Steve
10-24-2020, 03:14 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Depending, of course, on one's skin color. Green grass is also a good substitute. I still carry a gray card and use it for both estimation of incident light as well as as for inclusion of a gray reference for white balance in PP.


Steve
I used to have to do a lot of artefact photos (often in odd make-do set-ups) on slide film and my grey card was invaluable. It got lost somewhere in all my moves, sadly. I now do all my artefact photos digitally and can just chimp. As much as I enjoy using film, for run-of-the-mill work images, digital is much easier.
11-08-2020, 10:18 PM   #44
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ok, so I tried it and waiting for the film to be developed.
Perfect day, sunny, clear, not a cloud in the sky, 2pm, set my aperture to f16 shutter to 1/500, light meter arrow almost all the way down (that must be wrong).

But i went ahead and shot some photos, the way the sunny 16 rules says it.

But the light meter in my K1000, is not in pair with the sunny16.
But the arrow does move up and down when I point it at various areas, and does respond to the change in aperture and shutter speed.

So what can be wrong here?

Anyway, ill see the result in a week.

But, why?

Last edited by Harbaror; 11-09-2020 at 05:08 AM.
11-09-2020, 06:20 AM   #45
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A couple of my camera bags just happen to be the right shade of gray to stand in for a gray card.
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