Should Pentax make a new film SLR

Huss · 04-23-2021, 07:35 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Parallax

Seriously, I can't believe there won't be, in the foreseeable future, a place for film.

People have been saying that for 20-30 years now, and film usage has been growing year to year.

Don't take my word for it, use google.

It's never going to be mainstream again the way it was pre digital, but it will always be a niche market with enthusiastic users and sellers.

Eastman Kodak's still film production more than doubled in the last four years - Kosmo Foto

"Real" digital photography will soon be a small niche market too, with only a select number of high end equipment available. Camera phones have made sure of that.

**boriscleto** · 04-23-2021, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

PZ1 was $800 or so when it was new if I remember right...

Something new like it would probably be double...

-Eric

$800 in 1990 dollars is $1621 in 2021 dollars...

pathdoc · 04-23-2021, 08:08 AM

SHOULD THEY? Yes, of course, they should. The photography world could do with a new generation of high-quality, but no-frills, new-build film cameras.

WILL THEY? Sadly no, because of production line restart/rebuild cost issues.

In addition, whichever model you bring back (and let's face it, bringing back an older model is the way to go; all the R&D is already done and the blueprints - hopefully - still exist), someone's going to be displeased.

**TwoUptons** · 04-23-2021, 08:42 AM

Let’s call it the P1...
Modeled after the P3, which will make more sense in a minute.
Manual focus and film advance.
KAF4 mount to enable compatibility with all the new lenses. Includes af power contacts to drive focus by wire lenses.
Includes a flash sensor that works with P-TTL (and maybe TTL since you need a sensor anyway) to allow compatibility with current flash lineup.
Lens mount is “crippled” because it’s Ricoh and they can’t make it perfect

Also to make it the same as the mounts they make today for digital.
Basic center weighted meter with a simple spot option.
Fully electronic shutter because they can still source those.
Simple prism like the P3n with swappable screens.
Hybrid Judas window that shows aperture on old lenses optically and on new ones with a lcd overlay.
Shutter speed, mode, flash indicator, and meter readings in the finder.
ISO 6-6400 with +/-2 stop compensation.
Weather resistant.
P,A,S,M like a Super Program or P3n.
Integrated lithium ion battery. It’s tiny, though, since it doesn’t do much.
Electronic self timer and dof preview.
Green button metering
Exif-lite data in frame spaces
No motor drive, interchangeable finders, or any fancy “system” stuff.
List price $1,599... maybe more...

As I see it, that’s basically what we’re looking at...

-Eric

Last edited by TwoUptons; 04-23-2021 at 08:52 AM.

pathdoc · 04-23-2021, 08:53 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by TwoUptons

As I see it, that’s basically what we’re looking at...

You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible.

The most sophisticated it should get is P3/30T levels, but with flash-sync speed and Bulb reversion if the batteries fail.

**TwoUptons** · 04-23-2021, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by pathdoc

You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible.

The most sophisticated it should get is P3/30T levels, but with flash-sync speed and Bulb reversion if the batteries fail.

There is no AF in my suggestion - just enough support to let users focus a DFA*50mm...

I can’t see anyone making a film camera body that won’t work with lenses they have for sale today.

And those lenses mean enough sophistication to run their apertures and focus motors ( when focused manually) is needed, which probably means a 6v battery or so.

And while I would love a mechanical shutter (even partially), does anyone make those any more? This could use a K1 shutter...

The only fancy thing I put in there is the hybrid Judas window and ‘Exif’

If you really want cheap, pull off the prism and mirror. Box with a K-mount. How much were the Voigtlanders that did that?

-Eric

**othar** · 04-23-2021, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

Integrated lithium ion battery. It’s tiny, though, since it doesn’t do much.

When you integrate a KAF4 mount you will need something more powerfull and rechargeable.

disconnekt · 04-23-2021, 01:23 PM

As far as a "fully manual" slr, doubt in unless someone whos rich comes along, drops a big chunk of money to get the ball rolling.

Maybe easier with an AF film camera. Pentax can take one of their "last-in-line" AF cameras (like the MZ-S, ZX-L), put in a new AF/metering circuit board (even if its from an older dslr like the K3), tweek/update the circuitry/wiring, update the mount to KAF3, use newer/better materials for the body (the internals too).

nickthetasmaniac · 04-23-2021, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by pathdoc

You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible.

And there’s the issue...

‘We’ want a whole bunch of different things. Taste and preference amongst film shooters is nothing if not varied. I like high-end mechanical, others like compact p&s, others like speedy and versatile AF, others want a 6x7 tripod beast.

That was fine when the market was big enough to support options for everyone. But now? Whatever direction they take, they’re only ever going to appeal to a niche within an already small niche.

**TwoUptons** · 04-23-2021, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by disconnekt

As far as a "fully manual" slr, doubt in unless someone whos rich comes along, drops a big chunk of money to get the ball rolling.

Maybe easier with an AF film camera. Pentax can take one of their "last-in-line" AF cameras (like the MZ-S, ZX-L), put in a new AF/metering circuit board (even if its from an older dslr like the K3), tweek/update the circuitry/wiring, update the mount to KAF3, use newer/better materials for the body (the internals too).

I'd be almost as happy if I could find someone to affordably service my ZX-L when it inevitably eats its mirror gear

Which is I guess the problem...
And I paid $11 for my last one...

-Eric

**RobA_Oz** · 04-23-2021, 09:32 PM

I doubt it’s going to happen, too. However, if anyone were to make a film SLR in the future, one carrying the Pentax label is the most likely, given that Pentax is probably going to be the last DSLR maker.

To make it viable, assuming there’s a market for it, there’d have to be the greatest commonality of components with an existing DSLR, so any thoughts of not including electronics can probably be dismissed from the start, and that includes AF and AE. If you want manual control, they can always be turned off, but I think a fully mechanical body is likely out of the question. I should add that I love the older fully-mechanical camera bodies, as you’d expect a (retired) mechanical engineer to be, but I’ve also had experience of small-scale manufacturing of mechanical componentry and assemblies, so I realise how costly that can be.

A film transport mechanism (powered, probably, to avoid having to find a place for a manual film advance) would be the major new mechanical sub-assembly, but there’d have to be some work to integrate the existing rear panel controls with an opening back and a reconsideration of the battery would be needed, but removal of the SR assembly would free up some room to juggle things around, and the battery could be smaller anyway, without an image sensor to power. Maybe a smaller rear LCD might need to be retained for settings. Of course, there’d be a reduced ISO range.

So, which would the donor DSLR body be? The K-70 would be my choice, to keep the costs as low as possible, at least at first, although they might be able to squeeze a bit more profit out of the K-P tooling. No flippy preview screen, naturally.

All of that is probably starting to look less attractive to those who’d prefer something like an original film SLR, but I think that, in the unlikely event of there being a new film SLR, this is the most likely way you’ll get one.

**ffking** · 04-24-2021, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

this is the most likely way you’ll get one.

Best argument yet for a 'no'

**RobA_Oz** · 04-24-2021, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by ffking

Best argument yet for a 'no'

Remember the *ist?

**ffking** · 04-24-2021, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Remember the *ist?

Actually, no - I'm aware of it, but I was still using MF film, but also having a bit of a hiatus photographically speaking when it was around - I'd just got back to England after a few years in South Africa, and I found to difficult to visually adjust to the rather tamer everything

**Photos-by-Chas** · 04-24-2021, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Remember the *ist?

I recall it, it was my first DSLR. I found it to be a good starter camera, and it did take some pretty good photos for me.

View Poll Results: Should Pentax make a modern film SLR
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No	88	65.19%
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04-23-2021, 07:35 AM - 1 Like	#106
Huss Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 629	Originally posted by Parallax Seriously, I can't believe there won't be, in the foreseeable future, a place for film. People have been saying that for 20-30 years now, and film usage has been growing year to year. Don't take my word for it, use google. It's never going to be mainstream again the way it was pre digital, but it will always be a niche market with enthusiastic users and sellers. Eastman Kodak's still film production more than doubled in the last four years - Kosmo Foto "Real" digital photography will soon be a small niche market too, with only a select number of high end equipment available. Camera phones have made sure of that.

04-23-2021, 07:40 AM	#107
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by TwoUptons PZ1 was $800 or so when it was new if I remember right... Something new like it would probably be double... -Eric $800 in 1990 dollars is $1621 in 2021 dollars...

04-23-2021, 08:08 AM	#108
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	SHOULD THEY? Yes, of course, they should. The photography world could do with a new generation of high-quality, but no-frills, new-build film cameras. WILL THEY? Sadly no, because of production line restart/rebuild cost issues. In addition, whichever model you bring back (and let's face it, bringing back an older model is the way to go; all the R&D is already done and the blueprints - hopefully - still exist), someone's going to be displeased.

04-23-2021, 08:42 AM	#109
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,223	Let’s call it the P1... Modeled after the P3, which will make more sense in a minute. Manual focus and film advance. KAF4 mount to enable compatibility with all the new lenses. Includes af power contacts to drive focus by wire lenses. Includes a flash sensor that works with P-TTL (and maybe TTL since you need a sensor anyway) to allow compatibility with current flash lineup. Lens mount is “crippled” because it’s Ricoh and they can’t make it perfect Also to make it the same as the mounts they make today for digital. Basic center weighted meter with a simple spot option. Fully electronic shutter because they can still source those. Simple prism like the P3n with swappable screens. Hybrid Judas window that shows aperture on old lenses optically and on new ones with a lcd overlay. Shutter speed, mode, flash indicator, and meter readings in the finder. ISO 6-6400 with +/-2 stop compensation. Weather resistant. P,A,S,M like a Super Program or P3n. Integrated lithium ion battery. It’s tiny, though, since it doesn’t do much. Electronic self timer and dof preview. Green button metering Exif-lite data in frame spaces No motor drive, interchangeable finders, or any fancy “system” stuff. List price $1,599... maybe more... As I see it, that’s basically what we’re looking at... -Eric Last edited by TwoUptons; 04-23-2021 at 08:52 AM.

04-23-2021, 08:53 AM - 1 Like	#110
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by TwoUptons As I see it, that’s basically what we’re looking at... You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible. The most sophisticated it should get is P3/30T levels, but with flash-sync speed and Bulb reversion if the batteries fail.

04-23-2021, 10:38 AM	#111
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,223	Originally posted by pathdoc You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible. The most sophisticated it should get is P3/30T levels, but with flash-sync speed and Bulb reversion if the batteries fail. There is no AF in my suggestion - just enough support to let users focus a DFA*50mm... I can’t see anyone making a film camera body that won’t work with lenses they have for sale today. And those lenses mean enough sophistication to run their apertures and focus motors ( when focused manually) is needed, which probably means a 6v battery or so. And while I would love a mechanical shutter (even partially), does anyone make those any more? This could use a K1 shutter... The only fancy thing I put in there is the hybrid Judas window and ‘Exif’ If you really want cheap, pull off the prism and mirror. Box with a K-mount. How much were the Voigtlanders that did that? -Eric

04-23-2021, 11:49 AM	#112
othar Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Linz Photos: Albums Posts: 3,098	Originally posted by TwoUptons Integrated lithium ion battery. It’s tiny, though, since it doesn’t do much. When you integrate a KAF4 mount you will need something more powerfull and rechargeable.

04-23-2021, 01:23 PM	#113
disconnekt Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: SoCal/I.E. Photos: Albums Posts: 1,701	As far as a "fully manual" slr, doubt in unless someone whos rich comes along, drops a big chunk of money to get the ball rolling. Maybe easier with an AF film camera. Pentax can take one of their "last-in-line" AF cameras (like the MZ-S, ZX-L), put in a new AF/metering circuit board (even if its from an older dslr like the K3), tweek/update the circuitry/wiring, update the mount to KAF3, use newer/better materials for the body (the internals too).

04-23-2021, 02:21 PM	#114
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	Originally posted by pathdoc You're being too advanced. Forget AF. We want bare bones.The price needs to be kept as low as possible. And there’s the issue... ‘We’ want a whole bunch of different things. Taste and preference amongst film shooters is nothing if not varied. I like high-end mechanical, others like compact p&s, others like speedy and versatile AF, others want a 6x7 tripod beast. That was fine when the market was big enough to support options for everyone. But now? Whatever direction they take, they’re only ever going to appeal to a niche within an already small niche.

04-23-2021, 02:46 PM	#115
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,223	Originally posted by disconnekt As far as a "fully manual" slr, doubt in unless someone whos rich comes along, drops a big chunk of money to get the ball rolling. Maybe easier with an AF film camera. Pentax can take one of their "last-in-line" AF cameras (like the MZ-S, ZX-L), put in a new AF/metering circuit board (even if its from an older dslr like the K3), tweek/update the circuitry/wiring, update the mount to KAF3, use newer/better materials for the body (the internals too). I'd be almost as happy if I could find someone to affordably service my ZX-L when it inevitably eats its mirror gear Which is I guess the problem... And I paid $11 for my last one... -Eric

04-23-2021, 09:32 PM	#116
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	I doubt it’s going to happen, too. However, if anyone were to make a film SLR in the future, one carrying the Pentax label is the most likely, given that Pentax is probably going to be the last DSLR maker. To make it viable, assuming there’s a market for it, there’d have to be the greatest commonality of components with an existing DSLR, so any thoughts of not including electronics can probably be dismissed from the start, and that includes AF and AE. If you want manual control, they can always be turned off, but I think a fully mechanical body is likely out of the question. I should add that I love the older fully-mechanical camera bodies, as you’d expect a (retired) mechanical engineer to be, but I’ve also had experience of small-scale manufacturing of mechanical componentry and assemblies, so I realise how costly that can be. A film transport mechanism (powered, probably, to avoid having to find a place for a manual film advance) would be the major new mechanical sub-assembly, but there’d have to be some work to integrate the existing rear panel controls with an opening back and a reconsideration of the battery would be needed, but removal of the SR assembly would free up some room to juggle things around, and the battery could be smaller anyway, without an image sensor to power. Maybe a smaller rear LCD might need to be retained for settings. Of course, there’d be a reduced ISO range. So, which would the donor DSLR body be? The K-70 would be my choice, to keep the costs as low as possible, at least at first, although they might be able to squeeze a bit more profit out of the K-P tooling. No flippy preview screen, naturally. All of that is probably starting to look less attractive to those who’d prefer something like an original film SLR, but I think that, in the unlikely event of there being a new film SLR, this is the most likely way you’ll get one.

04-24-2021, 04:26 AM	#117
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,039	Originally posted by RobA_Oz this is the most likely way you’ll get one. Best argument yet for a 'no'

04-24-2021, 04:52 AM	#118
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,200	Originally posted by ffking Best argument yet for a 'no' Remember the *ist?

04-24-2021, 06:09 AM	#119
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,039	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Remember the *ist? Actually, no - I'm aware of it, but I was still using MF film, but also having a bit of a hiatus photographically speaking when it was around - I'd just got back to England after a few years in South Africa, and I found to difficult to visually adjust to the rather tamer everything

04-24-2021, 11:38 AM	#120
Photos-by-Chas Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Northwest Pennsylvania, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,318	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Remember the *ist? I recall it, it was my first DSLR. I found it to be a good starter camera, and it did take some pretty good photos for me.