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01-07-2009, 09:11 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
Film makers will have to do something to try to keep the till ringing. My comment simply referenced one way that could be "spun".
I don't really know how many film rolls are still being sold today, but I figure they're still making a profit with reduced runs. And I reckon film buying in the digital age should have stabilized already a year or so ago, when entry-level DSLRs hit the market to really gorgeous prices and used DSLRs becoming more and more cheaper.

I'm pretty confident there's profit to be had in color and B&W negatives, which is why Kodak and it's peers are still making them. Don't ask me about slide film, though. I know nothing about that.

I can't emphasize enough how much Lomography kids and film nuts like me are possibly making profits for film manufacturers in my neck of the woods, as well as profits for used camera resellers, who have begun to raise prices for their stock of classic SLRs and rangefinders (there's a general preference for all-metal bodies). To wit, a Canon rangefinder I saw with a 135mm lens is at around $532, and it's not even in the best of conditions, at that.

01-07-2009, 09:36 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
Not comparing film with Coke, but pointing out how people's buying triggers can be manipulated which can then have lasting effects (there's Coke in my fridge and slide film in my freezer).

If the film makers can convince most film users to start stocking film in the freezer they will likely double or triple their sales in the short term. Then, the psychological step from fear of loss or whatever creates a recommitted buyer who will then likely buy and use more of the product as well as stocking more of it in the freezer.
you are assuming that digital will never surpass film on all fronts, which is why i pointed out that your metaphor/analogy is off target.

coke had a product everyone was already drinking, the new product wasnt anything superior, so in the end they dropped it.

unlike you i'm more optimistic of the progress of digital sensor technology,
01-08-2009, 08:26 AM   #63
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Actually, I don't have an opinion on digital sensor technology. The companies will make whatever they choose to make and I'll use it because that's what exists. Digital has gone beyond the resolution comparisons for years now...

My opinions on film--slide or otherwise--frankly follow Wheatfield pretty closely. Color film will be gone someday--not 5 years, but certainly 50 years. My posted comment was simply a rumination on how the film makers could perhaps buy some time by playing marketing games. If all of us shooting film stocked 50 to 100 rolls in the freezer, that would represent sales increases for the makers and by default, create more committment (hopefully not just financially) from the end users.

No secret that I'd like transparency film to continue for as long as possible as my prefered print workflow is direct chrome transparency to Ilfochrome prints--no internegs and no scans. Fact is, most of my shooting is done with digi, but I only sell that stuff to magazines or load it into digital picture frames around the house. Haven't ever printed digital images (oh sure, 8x10 home printer stuff). I personally get an "art charge" out of large prints which I'm still doing with chromes. As my Ilfochrome/Cibachrome lab owner calls it, "quaint, old school stuff."

So my argument isn't film vs digital--I shoot both. My point is that the film manufacturers will definitely make marketing moves in order to both create sales and to increase the longevity of their medium. My Coke analogy is a loose prediction of what I see as one of the potential marketing angles that the companies will throw at us in the near future. And perhaps they won't go so far as to use the tried and true "take it away from them so they'll want it more" approach. That's pretty much college level marketing and for film to advance in the modern world they will need more than "intermediate" marketing strategies.
01-08-2009, 10:33 AM   #64
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There is a possibility of some company(ies) getting some of the emulsions and producing them as specialty products. They would have to figure out sustainable numbers to do that. However, there are a lot of specialized, high tech, hobby and other 'Niche" interests out there. I can see film falling into that category. There are still people painting pictures and drawing sketches.

01-08-2009, 11:25 AM   #65
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If film does disappear, it will do so in North America first, which is pretty sad. It seems that, from what I can tell of the internet and our international members, film is still doing pretty well for itself in Asia and Europe. Certainly not as good as it was, but there's far more of a niche audience there as opposed to here.

Also, on issues of profit: the equipment that makes film paid for it's development and construction decades ago. They can cut back production as much as they like and still make a small profit selling the stuff, which in turn drives other markets like the one for chemical processors and chemicals themselves. At the store level, companies can still turn a tidy profit developing film if they adjust for their volume. Obviously the huge 20+ rolls an hour machines of 15-20 years ago just won't cut it now, as they're too thirsty and the chemicals don't get used fast enough. Our lab at work has a Noritsu T15, which can only put out 8-10 rolls an hour, one at a time. We're doing lots of film to match the volume of that machine, so we're in the clear I would imagine.

Doom and gloom, anyone?
01-08-2009, 12:21 PM   #66
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this isnt the first time i'm hearing about this Noritsu T15

i tried to do some quick research, but i cant seem to find a price tag

how much do they run for?
01-08-2009, 12:27 PM   #67
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By the way, Fuji already used the "take it away" marketing ploy when they cancelled Velvia 50 soon after they released Velvia 100F a few years ago. But look, Velvia 50 was rereleased and is available now. So the Coke analogy has actually happened with film and I have a freezer full of Velvia 50 to prove it!

And what about Ektar 100? Wasn't that the OP?
01-08-2009, 12:30 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
By the way, Fuji already used the "take it away" marketing ploy when they cancelled Velvia 50 soon after they released Velvia 100F a few years ago. But look, Velvia 50 was rereleased and is available now. So the Coke analogy has actually happened with film and I have a freezer full of Velvia 50 to prove it!

And what about Ektar 100? Wasn't that the OP?
this new ektar is in fact new

01-08-2009, 01:43 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
By the way, Fuji already used the "take it away" marketing ploy when they cancelled Velvia 50 soon after they released Velvia 100F a few years ago. But look, Velvia 50 was rereleased and is available now. So the Coke analogy has actually happened with film and I have a freezer full of Velvia 50 to prove it!

And what about Ektar 100? Wasn't that the OP?
isn't the original 50 better than the new one?
the old one uses more scarce materials
01-08-2009, 10:32 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
There is a possibility of some company(ies) getting some of the emulsions and producing them as specialty products. They would have to figure out sustainable numbers to do that. However, there are a lot of specialized, high tech, hobby and other 'Niche" interests out there. I can see film falling into that category. There are still people painting pictures and drawing sketches.
That's what I'm thinking, too, that film will survive as a niche hobby. There certainly are new companies making new films or buying/licensing the technology from companies who have withdrawn from making films. And then there are new products from the big manufacturers, too.

QuoteOriginally posted by drewdlephone Quote
If film does disappear, it will do so in North America first, which is pretty sad. It seems that, from what I can tell of the internet and our international members, film is still doing pretty well for itself in Asia and Europe. Certainly not as good as it was, but there's far more of a niche audience there as opposed to here.

Also, on issues of profit: the equipment that makes film paid for it's development and construction decades ago. They can cut back production as much as they like and still make a small profit selling the stuff, which in turn drives other markets like the one for chemical processors and chemicals themselves. At the store level, companies can still turn a tidy profit developing film if they adjust for their volume. Obviously the huge 20+ rolls an hour machines of 15-20 years ago just won't cut it now, as they're too thirsty and the chemicals don't get used fast enough. Our lab at work has a Noritsu T15, which can only put out 8-10 rolls an hour, one at a time. We're doing lots of film to match the volume of that machine, so we're in the clear I would imagine.

Doom and gloom, anyone?
Asia would probably be the last to embrace film. For one, most 3rd world countries are here. While digital is certainly catching on, there are a lot of people here who still can't afford their own PCs and digital cameras (this is looking beyond Japan, Singapore, HK, etc.). As well, toy cameras are very popular in countries where digital has taken over, so there's a niche market (possibly a sizable enough niche market to make film for, still).

Like I have said, film cameras have increased in value here, and I figure someone could make a killing buying old cameras from estate sales in the US and selling them per piece here where I am.
01-09-2009, 07:19 AM   #71
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I have 20 rolls of Ektar 25 in the freezer that I was always going to use so now may be the time.

"100 years from now, negatives especially B&W will be good as new and digital images will be just a memory and not a reality"

Tom
01-09-2009, 08:53 AM   #72
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k100d--Don't know if the new Velvia 50 is the same formula as the old RVP 50. I still have maybe 100 rolls of the original in the freezer and haven't shot the new stuff--well, I have shot a few dozen rolls of the 100F, but none of the "reborn" 50. Fuji's website isn't insightful on this issue either. I pretty much either shoot RVP 50 or Kodak E100VS unless it's winter white and then I use Provia 100 for the neutral colors.

Still have about 50 or 75 rolls of Provia 400 for 35mm that may never get used--that was my low light "critter" film which is a digital shooting situation for me nowadays. If anybody is interested I'd sell some of it for half the going market rate...but that's a different thread...
01-09-2009, 09:51 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote

Like I have said, film cameras have increased in value here, and I figure someone could make a killing buying old cameras from estate sales in the US and selling them per piece here where I am.
Oh, they already *are.* Try buying Canon FD lenses on Ebay. Someone's buying up that stuff. ...even things that there are more copies of out there than there are likely film shooters who want consumer grade lenses: and it's really of no use for digital. Overseas buyers are in a bit of a feeding frenzy, actually.
01-09-2009, 06:59 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Oh, they already *are.* Try buying Canon FD lenses on Ebay. Someone's buying up that stuff. ...even things that there are more copies of out there than there are likely film shooters who want consumer grade lenses: and it's really of no use for digital. Overseas buyers are in a bit of a feeding frenzy, actually.
Isn't it that 4/3 can take FD lenses with an adapter without glass elements? I'm not sure, but if that's the case, then maybe those eBay buyers of FD glass are 4/3 photographers.
01-09-2009, 11:59 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
this isnt the first time i'm hearing about this Noritsu T15

i tried to do some quick research, but i cant seem to find a price tag

how much do they run for?
That's an excellent question. I wasn't involved in it's purchase, so I'm not sure. I know that our chain is attempting to get them into a lot more of our stores and get rid of our older processing equipment because we simply don't do the volume to support the larger machines. I do know that our lab manager loves the thing, because we never have to dump our chemistry due to it going stale, which would cost us.

Interesting to hear about the appreciating value of these cameras in the East. That can't be bad for my hypothesis, either.
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