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06-24-2009, 02:46 PM   #16
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I am calling you out steve.

The stuff in blue below was stated above and you obviously missed the link to the K-mount Voigtlander and apparently missed a later post where I guessed it was a rebadged Cosina C1S with a link to that one as well.

As far as the Zeiss developing the K-mount in alliance with Pentax for a cooperative series that never panned out, the only source I have a the moment is a Wikepedia one which I realize isn't an ironclad source. However, it wouldn't be the first time Pentax used a Zeiss designed mount . . . the M42. Go here and scroll down to Mounts section. Pentax K mount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

QuoteQuote:
Mounts

The Pentax K mount has undergone a number of evolutions over the years as new functionality has been added. In general, the term K mount may refer to the original K mount, or to all its variations.
Originally designed by Zeiss for an alliance with Pentax, it was intended to be a common lens mount for a proposed series of cameras and lenses. However, the plan failed to work out and the two firms parted company amicably, but Pentax retained the lens mount and at least one Zeiss lens design for its own use

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Ok, there is some misinformation above:

Current K-mount film cameras:
  • Cosina
  • Vivitar (rebadged Cosina)
  • Others?
  • Voigtländer does not and has never made a K-mount camera AFIK, unless you want to count Cosina = Voigtländer.

Ricoh, Sears, Ricoh pin, etc.:
  • Ricoh made standard K-mount lenses (initially)
  • Sears is rebranded Ricoh for all K-mount and most M42 bodies
  • Ricoh also made the Ricoh-P K-mount variant with the infamous Ricoh pin. These may be distinguished from other K-mount lenses by the pin and the "P" setting on the aperture ring
  • Ricoh-P lenses from third-party makers are labeled PK/R, PKR, KR etc.
  • Some third-party makers made a mount with both the Ricoh pin and Pentax "A" contacts
  • Not all Ricoh and Sears lenses have the Ricoh pin

Other stuff:
  • Zeiss did not invent the K-mount
  • Both Voigtländer and Zeiss make K-mount lenses
  • Voigtländer did make the Bessaflex TM M42 screw mount SLR
  • There are rumors of collaboration between Ricoh and Pentax on K-mount lens design and manufacture. I don't remember the models, but some lenses are considered to be identical between the lines.
  • Many of the non-Pentax K-mount cameras were quite capable fairly sturdy. While some might argue that the odd Ricoh, Chinon, or Cosina was not built to the same quality standards as Pentax, there sure seem to be a lot of good working examples floating around.

Steve

(Have Ricoh XR-2s and XR7 bodies...)


06-24-2009, 02:50 PM   #17
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Recap on links for Stevebrot's benefit.

Voigtlander, Pentax K-Mount SLR, AE, with 35-70mm f3.5 Zoom

Shutterbug: Voigtländer?s VSL 43

Cosina CS-1

59880 Vivitar V3800N SLR Multi Exposure Camera with 50/1.7 lens





06-24-2009, 03:26 PM   #18
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Peter Dechert or Marc James Small and/or Charles Barringer may know the answer to the late 1960s-early 1970 collaboration with Asahi for the Zeiss-Asahi line that never materialized. Zeiss ended up working with Yashica instead. Remember that Contax should up in Japan after ~10 year hiatus from Germany.
06-24-2009, 06:19 PM   #19
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(regarding the Cosina-Voigtlander m42 cameras)

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
It seems they are out of production and used ones are rare.
Pity, that, really. Looks like they came out with them a little too early, maybe, to really catch all this interest in the Pentax glass and all from the digital crossover. They could probably make em again, though, once in a while. Or some nice K-mount bodies to go with the Noktons and all.

Oh, and, general comment: by 80's standards, a lot of those Cosina bodies really were no great shakes for quality: some of those models had a lot of problems, but the survivors can be OK.

06-24-2009, 10:51 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I am calling you out steve.

The stuff in blue below was stated above and you obviously missed the link to the K-mount Voigtlander and apparently missed a later post where I guessed it was a rebadged Cosina C1S with a link to that one as well.

As far as the Zeiss developing the K-mount in alliance with Pentax for a cooperative series that never panned out, the only source I have a the moment is a Wikepedia one which I realize isn't an ironclad source. However, it wouldn't be the first time Pentax used a Zeiss designed mount . . . the M42. Go here and scroll down to Mounts section. Pentax K mount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Akkkkk...I have been called out!

I did miss the Voigtlander link...thanks for the correction. Seeing that hallowed name on a Cosina clone sort of hurts the eyes, particularly given the high quality of the Cosina-made Voigtlander rangefinders and the Bessaflex TM SLR.

As for the history of the K-mount, I have not been to the Wikipedia article for awhile and it looks like someone has been very busy. The amount of content has more than doubled since my last visit there. I have been aware of the Zeiss/Pentax collaboration in the late 60s and early 70s and am also aware that the multi-coating technology was jointly developed. I had never heard that the K-mount was anything other than a Pentax design and the Wikipedia article is the first I have seen on this topic. There is no reference, so it is hard to say where it came from, though I have found that non-factual information disappears pretty quickly from the wiki if it has no substance.

So...For all to see and read...

I have been called out...Someone was wrong on the Internet and it was ME!



Steve

(I am actually a pretty good natured sort...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-25-2009 at 09:05 AM.
06-24-2009, 11:45 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Basically, Chinon and Ricoh were using the K-mount with some sort of licensing agreements. Ricoh actually had a slight variation but those lenses would work on Pentax cameras. Sears had some decent lens in what was called a pkr mount. Sometimes those lenses can cause problems on the new digital Pentax bodies but sometimes not. I have 3 of those lenses. I have 2 copies of the model 202 135mm f2.8 lens, one got stuck when I tried to use it on my K200d and the other didn't. I strictly use them on the film bodies because of that. Some people have removed the Ricoh pin but I didn't want to do that. I have the Sears 80-20mm and the Ricoh pin causes problems on the k200d as well.

Anyway, when Chinon went autofocus, the lens compatablilty shifted. Those Chinon AF lenses won't work on Pentax bodies. Vivitar also had some cameras made with k-mount bodies and Sigma did as well. Sigma also has a mount of their own. Ricoh and Chinon are usually the best bet for film bodies as long as you stick with the manual focus bodies. I think you can use mf pentax lenses on the AF Chinon bodies but am not sure.
Pentax left the original K mount open for anyone to use without a license. That is why there were some other companies like Chinon, Sears, Cosine, Ricoh... who used it for their cameras and lenses. It makes it more fun being a Pentaxian since it leave us more old lenses to try out.

When the KA mount came in 1983 and later the KAF, they were patented and not open, which forced Ricoh and Chinon to try their own solutions...rather unsuccesfully.

As for Zeiss involvement in the original K mount I know no really reliable source (Wikipedia for sure isn't without a reference). It is possible since they did colaborate on the super multi coating and on some lenses (most know the 15mm/3.5), that was just prior to (SMC) and just during the shift from m42 to K (the 15mm/3.5). But it could also be a rumor. Even today there is a tendency from some people to try to give the credit for all current lenses to someone else, like Tokina (while actually Pentax designed all the lenses that you can get from both Pentax and Tokina except the 12-24mm which is Tokina design).

Remember that Pentax went bayonett rather late and hanged on to the m42 mount (improving it with automatic apperture transfer) in many years when the competition already had bayonett mounts. The advantage that we have is that they kept the same registration distance for the K mount as the m42 lenses have (and the m39 lenses built for the Asahiflexes). That's why it takes such a simple adapter to mount m42 in K cameras.
06-25-2009, 01:00 AM   #22
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Very interesting thread.

No one's mentioned the Russian Zenith cameras, which came in K-Mount from 1984 with the latest model being from 2001 (hence the existence of the Helios 44K-4).
06-25-2009, 09:08 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Akkkkk...I have been called out!

I did miss the Voigtlander link...thanks for the correction. Seeing that hallowed name on a Cosina clone sort of hurts the eyes, particularly given the high quality of the Cosina-made Voigtlander rangefinders and the Bessaflex SLR.

. . .

Steve

(I am actually a pretty good natured sort...)
I couldn't find my gun-slinger emoticon. I never said that thing was pretty.

I contacted someone at Zeiss Historica to try to get a reference on the Zeiss-Asahi alliance. My question followed by the response.

QuoteQuote:
Question:

I have heard that Zeiss (Contax) designed the k-mount in alliance with Asahi (Pentax) in the late 60s or early 70s. Is there a reference for this? This was prior to the alliance with Yashica the way I understand.


Answer from the email:


Since nothing happened officially, there is no reference material that will confirm this but I have heard this as fact for some time and I do know that Zeiss and Asahi were close to an agreement before the Yashica deal and had some joint ventures in Japan in the eyeglass business.

Zeiss in East Germany also developed the M42 screw mount in the late 1940s and sold it to Asahi.

Zeiss Historica


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