[bigdave69]

Hello out there;
First off, wanted to say this is a GREAT site; tons of info for the budding photographer!
I am shooting my first wedding, in a months time, against my better judgement. The bride to be saw my photos (she is a friend of a friend), and said she wanted me to do her wedding. After 5x of telling her I am just an amateur, I finally relented. (doing it for free - all I want is a couple of sdhc cards)
My question is, what settings, advice, etc, can you give me? (besides the obvious...dont do it! lol)
I have a k7 (just bought it), a k200d, DA 18-55 lens, that came with the camera, SMC FA 80-320 1:4.5-5.6, SMC FA 28-70 1:4, DA 10-17 fisheye 1:3.5-4.5, pentax 540 flash, and a Vivitar 730AFPK auto focus zoom flash.
I welcome ALL answers ( be a little gentle though, ok? lol)
Thank you one and all.

Dave

[hangu]

I hate to point out the obvious but it doesn't seem like you have any fast lenses for low light situations. If their wedding is in a church, that will pose quite a problem as flash will probably not be allowed. Consider a manual focus 50mm f1.4 or 1.7 if money is tight. A diffuser would be useful as well. I'd scout out the location first before the wedding. I'd also make sure you know how to use your flashes VERY well, they're extremely important during a wedding.

I'd draw up a contract even if you're doing it for free, just to have things written down and expectations set in stone. For example, do they expect RAW files? JPEGs? Prints? I, personally, would not do a 1st wedding as the primary photographer for a friend's friend. Things can get ugly really fast. How you are as an amateur photographer rarely translates well into wedding photography. An amateur portfolio is little indication of what someone will putt out in a wedding but the bride doesn't know that.

[Mike Cash]

This is like your friend being so impressed with your Thanksgiving turkey carving skills that you give in to her pleas to perform a kidney transplant operation on her.

[montman]

+1 for Hangu
You need to get some fast glass. If you don’t have the funds, Hangu recommend some nice manual lenses. If you do have some cash or if you don’t, sell something and get some cash.
If I had to have one lens it would be the FA 50 1.4
Also make sure you have plenty of memory and figure out how you are going to pose your formals before you show up.

[bigdog104]

I hate to point out the obvious but it doesn't seem like you have any fast lenses for low light situations. If their wedding is in a church, that will pose quite a problem as flash will probably not be allowed. Consider a manual focus 50mm f1.4 or 1.7 if money is tight.

You might want to consider renting or borrowing a lens for the occasion. I would recommend the FA 28-70MM f2.8, although a fast prime would be good choice as well, it really depends on the location and setup.

This was not really on your list of questions but I would suggest making sure you have a checklist of the pictures you want to get. The permutation and combinations of family members can be endless but get with the bride beforehand so you will now what is important to her.

One more suggestion, and this might be cutting it close time wise, but try and go to the rehearsal. That will give you a good idea of the conditions and what to expect for the wedding. I agree that you need to scout it out ahead of time but the rehearsal will let you see what everyone will looks like standing in place and how you might need to move them to make it all work for the pictures.

Good Luck,

[alohadave]

Okay, it's your first wedding, and you've committed to it. Whether you are ready or not is beside the point now. The best you can do is be prepared.

1) Find out where the ceremony is being held and talk to the officiant (in person if possible). Ask about using flash and where you are allowed to be, and what restrictions there are. Each officiant will be different, and they are the final word about what happens during the ceremony.

2) Get a plan of the events and the order that they will happen. If you know what is coming up, you can be ready and in position.

3) Don't be timid, and get the shots. You are there to do a job, and that job is to get pictures of the couple's special day.

4) Get shots of the little details. Place settings, centerpieces, place cards, etc. Someone spent a lot of time and energy picking these details out, more so if they are handmade.

5) Camera settings: For the reception, I find that ISO800, F/5.6, 1/30-1/60th are about right for balancing ambient with flash (I shoot manual with flash). You want just enough ambient to have slightly underexposed backgrounds so you don't have bright subjects in the dark. I use my flash in auto (thyristor - older manual flash) mode and let the flash get the exposure on people right, and the background stays consistent. Take a couple test shots before the action starts to get it how you like it.

6) Don't only get pictures of the bride & groom. This is their day, but I like to make a sweep of the room and get pictures of as many of the guests/couples as I can. This may be the last time that 'Aggie' makes it out to see the family before she passes and having a final picture may be important in the future. It doesn't take long and gives the B&G a break from being stalked by the photographer.

7) Try not to stress out too much. If you can't remain calm, you are going to miss things and having a meltdown infront of everyone is no good.

8) Get a meal if you are shooting the whole reception. Some people (B&G) don't think about this and it's usually not an intentional slight. Working a wedding is a lot of work and you'll need something.

9) Have fun and trust your instincts. You know your style, and how you shoot. Weddings can be a lot of fun if you can get in a good zone.

[SpecialK]

have a checklist of the pictures you want to get.

For a friend-of-a-friend freebie...

1) Full length formal of bride. Remember it's all about her, mostly...
2) The couple plus minister during ceremony. Conveys a sense of legal wedlock...
3) The cake, (or better), the cake cutting action. Do not encourage frosting smearing!
4) The bouquet toss. Tradition has become to fake the first throw for the shot, then for reals.
5) The garter toss. Don't fake it, just take it. By then, if alcohol has been flowing, and sometimes even when not, no one is taking directions anymore.

That pretty much sums up the event :-)

If you get an excellent shot of each of the above, the rest is gravy.

That gravy consists of the bride and groom, bride and maid/s of honor, groom and best man/men, and (drumroll...) the couple with parents, and with grandparents (sets of parents/grandparents separately). For larger groups you have them execute the "turn and squish up" maneuver to get them all in the frame without too much of the light fixtures and floor showing in a sweeping panorama. It also allows you to get a bit closer which bumps the flash effectiveness. These are all normally done in the church with flash, or outside with a suitable background if lighting allows. Don't sweat the poses too much - after the first batch, everyone else will know the routine. As long as eyes are open and they are somewhat smiling, you are good. You might take a couple of each if you have "problem squinter".

Friends and people who came for the food you can just shoot at each table during the dinner - but you'll have to ask half of them to move to the other side for the shot. And shoot the people, not the half eaten food on the table.

You can ask the bride and groom individually if they want a shot with any particular people. Find a nice corner to set up in and have those people come on over...

Oh, and a shot of the invitation is handy for the names and date. You can use some parts of gift-wrapping to add some festivity.

God, now I remember why I only did a few of these...

---

Last edited by SpecialK; 06-30-2010 at 06:17 PM.

[aleonx3]

Get familiar with the schedule of activities from the host so you can anticipate what is coming up next.

Use the K-7 camera setting to your advantage, example is similar to one suggested by alohadave - use manual setting for flash (I keep that in USER mode). Then use A, P and TAV mode depending on light conditions outdoor or indoor.

Also, as suggested, stay loose and enjoy the role of being a photographer. You have the right gear to get the job done. I also suggest perhaps a DA* lens if you can find one or rent one. I have both DA* 16-50 lens and 50-135, they work great. However, since the DA* with SDM had a history of problems, I usually tried them out a day or two before to ensure SDM is working just to be safe.

Enjoy!!

[Aristophanes]

Buy this right now:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-equipment-sale/106265-sale-s...-ex-dg-us.html

And a fast 50 1.4 with AF.

One on one camera, one on the other.

And read Scott Kelby.

[bigdave69]

Mucho thanks for all your input.
Considering getting the FA 50 1.4
As for test shots, I have been to the church, and took test shots; didnt turn out TOO badly. I also have a friend taking overhead shots from the balcony, and getting the groom at the church, while I am at the brides house.
I have a checklist of the shots that the bride wants ( sorry, didnt mention that.)
Have scouted out the park, where she wants pics of, and have taken test shots there, as well as the reception hall.
I guess it's a case of boldly going, where I have not gone before! lol
And Mike; it's an appendectomy - doing it after the wedding. Piece of cake!

Dave

[alohadave]

Good luck, and if the bride is cool with it, share some pictures with us.

[Eigengrau]

If you could only get one lens, get the 16-50/2.8, or a third-party equivalent. There are places online where you can rent one for pretty reasonable prices. The 28-70 isn't really wide enough or fast enough.

Practice a LOT with bounce flash. Never use direct flash unless it is fill or you have absolutely no other option.

The FA50/1.4 would also be a worthy consideration (and a FA 35/2.0 or 31/1.8 if we're throwing out wishes) although if you can only afford one, the 16-50 would be preferable.

Be bold and confident and even bossy if you have to. You want to be nice, but no matter how much the couple likes you that day, it won't count for squat if they are looking at bad/missed pictures. Insist on having the time you need, and be comfortable telling people what you need them to do and telling people who are interfering to go away (nicely, of course).

I would've advised you to scout the location and get a second shooter, but looks like you have that covered. Get a detailed itinerary if you can.

Good luck! As long as the bride is reasonable in her expectations, I'm sure you'll do great. Sounds like you've got your stuff together. Seriously consider the faster lenses, though. Fast glass will turn an impossible situation into something manageable.

[Wheatfield]

Wheatfield's Rule #1: If they notice you, you are not doing your job.
If the choice is missing a picture or getting in the way, then you miss the picture.
Too many photographers forget this.

Wheatfield's Rule #2: Forget the zoom lenses.

You need a prime in around the 28-35mm range, preferably f/2 or faster.
There is limited availability of these lenses.
Something a little longer, in the 50mm range will serve you well. An f/1.4 would be nice, but an f/1.7 will do just fine.
A wide angle is nice to have along, though they are of less use, your kit lens will do fine, just treat it like a fat 18mm.

Invest in (or rent) an off camera flash or a handle grip that will allow you to Rube Goldberg an off camera flash.

I'm still using a 25 year old Metz handlemount flash. The need for fancy electronics is greatly exaggerated, with the need itself being invented by marketing people.
A good autoflash will serve you just as well as a fancy pTTL autoflash, and may actually serve you better.

If you are going to insist on taking the advice of not using direct flash, and are going to bounce flash, then be prepared to fail. Bounce flash is terribly unbredictable and is also very wasteful of power.
You will need a hugely powerful flash, and an external battery pack.
If you really want to bounce flash, then get a modifier that attaches to the flash head. That way, you at least have some means of predicting what your flash is going to do.

Go to the rehearsal and plan your shots according to that. There are 3 spots that are musts: the aisle, about 3/4 of the way to the front, the front during the register signing and any subceremonies that they decide to do (sand ceremony or whatever), and off to the side someplace where you can get a view of the alter for the readings.

That's it. You don't need to be anywhere else, and once the processional has gone by, you don't need the front of the aisle any more.
Set up a staging area at the back of the church. Your tripod should be there and it should be extended so that you can quickly switch from candid reportage of the processional to tripod mounted available light for the ceremony.
If you have two cameras, set one of them up on the tripod and just move it into the aisle after the processional. (and make sure you have removed it before the recessional).

Your ISO should be as high as possible, within the limits of what you will accept as noise. This lets you stop down a bit more, making focus errors much less of a problem.
If your goal is prints, then do some tests of what you can expect of your camera at higher ISOs. Too many people judge noise by what they see on a computer screen at 200%.
While I appreciate that measurebators make the world go round, noise at 200% screen size is of absolutely no relevance to making prints or making screen resolution images.

All the moaning about high ISO noise of the K7 can be safely disregarded if your goal is prints or screen resolution files for web posting.
Also, your client won't give a rat if you apply some NR to your files, as long as aunt Martha is in focus in the back row.

And try to have fun.

[Eigengrau]

Wheatfield's Rule #1: If they notice you, you are not doing your job.
If the choice is missing a picture or getting in the way, then you miss the picture.
Too many photographers forget this.

Wheatfield's Rule #2: Forget the zoom lenses.

You need a prime in around the 28-35mm range, preferably f/2 or faster.
There is limited availability of these lenses.
Something a little longer, in the 50mm range will serve you well. An f/1.4 would be nice, but an f/1.7 will do just fine.

I agree with a few of your sentiments, but a few things I wouldn't.

Being discreet is absolutely a good thing (I almost never use flash during a ceremony, for instance) but whether you should opt to miss a shot or butt in and get a shot really depends on what the B&G want you to do. Some of them want really dramatic close-ups and will be upset if all of the pictures you provide are showing backs of heads and bad angles because you were too afraid to get in close and personal. Respect the ceremony and the participants, but make sure you get them the pictures they want. It is much better to deal with the temporary frustration of you being indiscreet than the lasting pain of a missed photo.

That said, my wife and I frequently get compliments on how subtle and unobtrusive we are - just be respectful and make sure you do your job.

Also, I used to be much more biased towards primes, but a 2.8 zoom can do 95% of everything a prime can (in terms of low light and DOF) and you won't be missing shots while you're changing lenses. A prime is good, but I'd take a fast zoom first. The less complication you have, the better. The most challenging parts of the wedding will demand quick composition changes and thinking, and the versatility of a zoom increases your chance of getting that magic shot.

Regarding bounce flash - if it is on-camera, it has to be bounce. Direct flash looks cheap and bad, like Aunt Meridith's $100 point and shoot. Exposure can be tough, but this is where you take advantage of digital - dial in a rough approximation (you must use manual or it will be too inconsistent) and take test shots till it clicks. Repeat this process if the room/light changes. A previous poster put up good guidelines for an aperture and shutter speed combination to get you started. Also, don't be afraid to shoot at ISO 800 or 1600 if you need to. With a zoom at 2.8 or 4.0 and the same Pentax 540 Flash, I never have to go higher than 1/4 flash power, even in a recent reception where the ceiling was 40 feet high (burned through lots of batteries ), and more often I'm around 1/8 or 1/16. This gives pretty decent cycle times. The only caveat is that you'll have to learn to keep your distance from the subject pretty consistent, and keep an eye on where your flash is pointed. The angle of the surface you're bouncing off of can really change things, and white balance can get crazy too if the ceiling/wall is a weird color.

Just because bounce is difficult doesn't mean it isn't worth it. No single technique dramatically improved my photos as much as bounce flash did.

[Wheatfield]

I agree with a few of your sentiments, but a few things I wouldn't.

Being discreet is absolutely a good thing (I almost never use flash during a ceremony, for instance) but whether you should opt to miss a shot or butt in and get a shot really depends on what the B&G want you to do. Some of them want really dramatic close-ups and will be upset if all of the pictures you provide are showing backs of heads and bad angles because you were too afraid to get in close and personal. Respect the ceremony and the participants, but make sure you get them the pictures they want. It is much better to deal with the temporary frustration of you being indiscreet than the lasting pain of a missed photo.

That said, my wife and I frequently get compliments on how subtle and unobtrusive we are - just be respectful and make sure you do your job.

Also, I used to be much more biased towards primes, but a 2.8 zoom can do 95% of everything a prime can (in terms of low light and DOF) and you won't be missing shots while you're changing lenses. A prime is good, but I'd take a fast zoom first. The less complication you have, the better. The most challenging parts of the wedding will demand quick composition changes and thinking, and the versatility of a zoom increases your chance of getting that magic shot.

Regarding bounce flash - if it is on-camera, it has to be bounce. Direct flash looks cheap and bad, like Aunt Meridith's $100 point and shoot. Exposure can be tough, but this is where you take advantage of digital - dial in a rough approximation (you must use manual or it will be too inconsistent) and take test shots till it clicks. Repeat this process if the room/light changes. A previous poster put up good guidelines for an aperture and shutter speed combination to get you started. Also, don't be afraid to shoot at ISO 800 or 1600 if you need to. With a zoom at 2.8 or 4.0 and the same Pentax 540 Flash, I never have to go higher than 1/4 flash power, even in a recent reception where the ceiling was 40 feet high (burned through lots of batteries ), and more often I'm around 1/8 or 1/16. This gives pretty decent cycle times. The only caveat is that you'll have to learn to keep your distance from the subject pretty consistent, and keep an eye on where your flash is pointed. The angle of the surface you're bouncing off of can really change things, and white balance can get crazy too if the ceiling/wall is a weird color.

Just because bounce is difficult doesn't mean it isn't worth it. No single technique dramatically improved my photos as much as bounce flash did.

What are you using as a bounce modifier? My reason for asking is because I've found that just pointing the flash head up at a 45º angle is a recipe for disaster.
I use a Metz 60, which has quite a bit more power than my AF540 flash and I wouldn't ever consider bouncing it off a 40' ceiling. The recycle time will be about 10 seconds, which is forever at a wedding, and there will be no catchlights.
For bounce, a modifier is an absolute necessity, it's a fools game to depend on the church ceiling to be a light source.
Sorry, but the numbers you are quoting just don't add up to the facts in my experience.
Better still, get the flash head away from the camera and use direct flash. It's more predictable and will use less batteries and give faster recycling.
If I am running two bodies at the church, I do exactly 2 lens changes as well, so I'm not missing shots due to lens changes.
What I get in return from primes is one or two stops more light for the camera to work with.
I've tried zooms a couple of times and have always found them wanting, which is why I steer well away from them and also recommend to others to do the same thing.