Corrupt DNG from Pentax

JeffJS · 03-22-2011, 06:43 PM

What I am seeing is that while reading the RAW file with DCU4 (v4.2) can work if camera setting is used or Gray point(s) is used, it works. If I try to use a Different White balance however, it's still a pretty shade of purple.

Attached Images

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 01:44 PM

I got the following response form Pentax. So I guess we wait. :-)

Meanwhile, anyone using multiple-exposure, be sure to shoot in JPG or RAW+JPG.
There is no way to completely correct for the degree to which this problem is exhibited.

Quote:

Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting Pentax.

We have reproduced this in DCU 4.32 in Windows XP and in Mac OS 10.5.8. Thank you for notifying us of this problem. This information will be forwarded to PENTAX in Japan. Unfortunately, we do not yet have an estimate on a possible fix.

If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center at 800-877-0155.

Sincerely,
Dave R.
Pentax Imaging Technical Support

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 01:47 PM

he, he, oddly, I just saw LightRoom 3.4rc1 is available. One of the fixes is were the nikon D7000 has a purple cast for multiple-exposure images shot in RAW mode.

Very odd. I wonder if the issue might be doubled for Pentax images in LR, thus making the matter much more present in LR3 than in Aperture or just quick viewing through the OS... and more pronounced than Pentax's Camera Utility software.

I suppose once Pentax fixes the issue, we'll need to forward to Adobe. No sense getting them involved until Pentax's files are good.

I guess the point is that it is possible that we'll have this fixed when hell freezes over. Ugh!

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 02:05 PM

OK, heard from Pentax again... That was quick.
Sounds like this is "intended behavior". Perhaps not expected, but there we are.
I'll give Adobe a try and see if they think their issue covers Pentax as well as Nikon.

Bet they'll get right on that.

Quote:

Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting Pentax.

We have heard back from PENTAX in Japan and they indicate this color shift when adjusting the white balance of multi-exposure RAW files (and JPEGs) is known behavior. This is not specific to the K5, but to multi-exposure files from any of our DSLRs that have this feature. Because of the structure of a multi-exposure image, you don’t have the same degree of post-capture control that you do over an image created from a single exposure.

The white balance of a multi-exposure file (RAW, DNG or JPEG) can be adjusted by using the Gray Point Setting feature in Digital Camera Utility or Lightroom.

If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center at 800-877-0155.

Sincerely,
Dave Robinson
Pentax Imaging Technical Support

JeffJS · 03-29-2011, 02:37 PM

Well now............................. Isn't that Special.

It seems rather obvious to me that simply recording the WB properly would fix it... But what do I know? I guess I can quit trying to backdate the firmware to see if it's anything new.

Does it happen with you K7 or K10? I've never tried multi on either and no longer own them.

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 03:54 PM

Well, I can see that with multiple exposures, there is no way to guarantee that the white balance, or any other setting is consistent between exposures and the structure may be unpredictable. It may even be invalid to attempt to define a specific value for some of the RAW metadata.

So to that extent I sort of understand what pentax is saying. Still, there must be some baseline for which the image is considered "correct"... and this is perhaps where Adobe needs to make a fix.

FYI, just got off a two hour tech support call with Adobe.
Must say, they have greatly improved their support system since the last time I called!! (either that or I was lucky).

Anyway, they have my sample files, have reproduced the problem, and will investigate.
They say someone will contact my in about a week or so... but I know how important Pentax is to them, so I'm not holding my breath for a fix. :-) :-)

I am going to try this on my other Pentax cameras. I'm positive the K10D did not have this problem. But perhaps I wasn't shooting RAW at the time?? Also, multi-exposure was near useless and downright painful to use, so I may not have any of those saved.

Anyway, I guess we sit and wait... again.

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 04:15 PM

Naturally, this is NOT an issue with the K7 nor K10D. (I won't bother checking the istD.)

So off went another letter to Pentax....
ARGH!!!

JeffJS · 03-29-2011, 06:19 PM

I'm just going by what I see in ACR. WB doesn't appear to have been recorded at all and the variable seems almost non existent. We aren't Changing WB during multi, (unless in some strange case if it's even possible) so to properly note it in the file, seems like a no brainer to me. Even if just for the first exposure and letting it ride.

amoringello · 03-29-2011, 06:26 PM

Can't argue with ya there! :-(

Hound Tooth · 03-29-2011, 08:41 PM

erm... your DNG file looked just fine for me when I opened it in Bibble. Maybe you guys are all using defective RAW converters (Pentax DCU included)

edit: also, my own multi-exposure shot with a K-5 using FW 1.03 turned out perfectly too.

amoringello · 03-30-2011, 03:15 AM

I think Bibble might just have the ability to tweak out extra range of white balance correction. Silky Pix used to do better than LightRoom in extreme cases. Bibble might do better than the big three.

I'd be interested in knowing if its white balance controls are set to a reasonable value or if its pegged them to one end to give reasonable looking results.

I would normally argue that Pentax should be the authority on their own DNG file format.. but from the statements above, this is obviously a fallacy. The guy obviously made up a story to get me to go away.

It is interesting that Bibble works. Maybe you can inform Pentax and have them send their engineers to that company for some training.

Hound Tooth · 03-30-2011, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by amoringello

I would normally argue that Pentax should be the authority on their own DNG file format.. but from the statements above, this is obviously a fallacy. The guy obviously made up a story to get me to go away.

To be clear, Pentax doesn't have a special DNG format. The DNG format belongs to Adobe, and Pentax makes use of it. DNG is pretty universal, and Pentax does nothing custom with it. This is why a K-5 DNG could be opened in most RAW processing applications long before the K-5 was officially supported. The only difference was in cropping out the extraneous pixels along the edges.

My guess is that ACR has some bug in its interpretation of certain RAW parameters, and this bug has been directly duplicated by other RAW processing software who license the DNG format library from Adobe (like Silkypix/DCU). Most likely this parameter gets introduced only under specific conditions (ie. multi-exposure). This wouldn't be the first time that Adobe software can't read its own format properly.

Meanwhile, RAW processors that created their own DNG library instead of licensing it (ie. dcraw, Bibble, etc.) don't have this issue.

So it's entirely possible that this isn't Pentax's fault at all.

amoringello · 03-30-2011, 03:36 PM

he, he, yeah, sorry I meant RAW.

But either way, both PEF and DNG are having the same issue so its the core data being generated by pentax that is a problem.

The "problem" does not exist with K7 or K10 (PEF nor DNG), so it being a flaw in PhotoShop, DCU or Aperture really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Although the statement of licensed DNG libs v.s. custom built ones makes sense as well.

Your guess is as good as anyone else's at this point. It is certainly interesting that dcraw and Bibble do not exhibit a problem. It find it more interesting that K7 and K10 files do not either.

sterretje · 03-31-2011, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by amoringello

OK, heard from Pentax again... That was quick.
Sounds like this is "intended behavior". Perhaps not expected, but there we are.
I'll give Adobe a try and see if they think their issue covers Pentax as well as Nikon.

Bet they'll get right on that.

They did not say 'intended'; they said 'known' which might still imply a bug

amoringello · 03-31-2011, 02:24 AM

From the context of the full text, it seems to infer that they feel this is something that cannot be fixed. Therefore the current behavior is intended, or perhaps 'acceptable' might be a better term... just not used as often to describe this type of issue.

Regardless, the fact is that this does *not* happen on the K7 nor the K10, so Pentax is lying (or this person at Pentax Support is lying). I do not believe any of the statements that I have been given so far as being accurate.

They asked for my phone number so that a tech can discuss the issue.
We'll see where that leads.

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03-22-2011, 06:43 PM	#16
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	What I am seeing is that while reading the RAW file with DCU4 (v4.2) can work if camera setting is used or Gray point(s) is used, it works. If I try to use a Different White balance however, it's still a pretty shade of purple. Attached Images

03-29-2011, 01:44 PM	#17
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	I got the following response form Pentax. So I guess we wait. :-) Meanwhile, anyone using multiple-exposure, be sure to shoot in JPG or RAW+JPG. There is no way to completely correct for the degree to which this problem is exhibited. Quote: Dear Customer, Thank you for contacting Pentax. We have reproduced this in DCU 4.32 in Windows XP and in Mac OS 10.5.8. Thank you for notifying us of this problem. This information will be forwarded to PENTAX in Japan. Unfortunately, we do not yet have an estimate on a possible fix. If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center at 800-877-0155. Sincerely, Dave R. Pentax Imaging Technical Support

03-29-2011, 01:47 PM	#18
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	he, he, oddly, I just saw LightRoom 3.4rc1 is available. One of the fixes is were the nikon D7000 has a purple cast for multiple-exposure images shot in RAW mode. Very odd. I wonder if the issue might be doubled for Pentax images in LR, thus making the matter much more present in LR3 than in Aperture or just quick viewing through the OS... and more pronounced than Pentax's Camera Utility software. I suppose once Pentax fixes the issue, we'll need to forward to Adobe. No sense getting them involved until Pentax's files are good. I guess the point is that it is possible that we'll have this fixed when hell freezes over. Ugh!

03-29-2011, 02:05 PM	#19
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	OK, heard from Pentax again... That was quick. Sounds like this is "intended behavior". Perhaps not expected, but there we are. I'll give Adobe a try and see if they think their issue covers Pentax as well as Nikon. Bet they'll get right on that. Quote: Dear Customer, Thank you for contacting Pentax. We have heard back from PENTAX in Japan and they indicate this color shift when adjusting the white balance of multi-exposure RAW files (and JPEGs) is known behavior. This is not specific to the K5, but to multi-exposure files from any of our DSLRs that have this feature. Because of the structure of a multi-exposure image, you don’t have the same degree of post-capture control that you do over an image created from a single exposure. The white balance of a multi-exposure file (RAW, DNG or JPEG) can be adjusted by using the Gray Point Setting feature in Digital Camera Utility or Lightroom. If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center at 800-877-0155. Sincerely, Dave Robinson Pentax Imaging Technical Support

03-29-2011, 02:37 PM	#20
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Well now............................. Isn't that Special. It seems rather obvious to me that simply recording the WB properly would fix it... But what do I know? I guess I can quit trying to backdate the firmware to see if it's anything new. Does it happen with you K7 or K10? I've never tried multi on either and no longer own them.

03-29-2011, 03:54 PM	#21
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Well, I can see that with multiple exposures, there is no way to guarantee that the white balance, or any other setting is consistent between exposures and the structure may be unpredictable. It may even be invalid to attempt to define a specific value for some of the RAW metadata. So to that extent I sort of understand what pentax is saying. Still, there must be some baseline for which the image is considered "correct"... and this is perhaps where Adobe needs to make a fix. FYI, just got off a two hour tech support call with Adobe. Must say, they have greatly improved their support system since the last time I called!! (either that or I was lucky). Anyway, they have my sample files, have reproduced the problem, and will investigate. They say someone will contact my in about a week or so... but I know how important Pentax is to them, so I'm not holding my breath for a fix. :-) :-) I am going to try this on my other Pentax cameras. I'm positive the K10D did not have this problem. But perhaps I wasn't shooting RAW at the time?? Also, multi-exposure was near useless and downright painful to use, so I may not have any of those saved. Anyway, I guess we sit and wait... again.

03-29-2011, 04:15 PM	#22
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Naturally, this is NOT an issue with the K7 nor K10D. (I won't bother checking the istD.) So off went another letter to Pentax.... ARGH!!!

03-29-2011, 06:19 PM	#23
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	I'm just going by what I see in ACR. WB doesn't appear to have been recorded at all and the variable seems almost non existent. We aren't Changing WB during multi, (unless in some strange case if it's even possible) so to properly note it in the file, seems like a no brainer to me. Even if just for the first exposure and letting it ride.

03-29-2011, 06:26 PM	#24
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	Can't argue with ya there! :-(

03-29-2011, 08:41 PM	#25
Hound Tooth Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Williston, VT Posts: 268	erm... your DNG file looked just fine for me when I opened it in Bibble. Maybe you guys are all using defective RAW converters (Pentax DCU included) edit: also, my own multi-exposure shot with a K-5 using FW 1.03 turned out perfectly too.

03-30-2011, 03:15 AM	#26
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	I think Bibble might just have the ability to tweak out extra range of white balance correction. Silky Pix used to do better than LightRoom in extreme cases. Bibble might do better than the big three. I'd be interested in knowing if its white balance controls are set to a reasonable value or if its pegged them to one end to give reasonable looking results. I would normally argue that Pentax should be the authority on their own DNG file format.. but from the statements above, this is obviously a fallacy. The guy obviously made up a story to get me to go away. It is interesting that Bibble works. Maybe you can inform Pentax and have them send their engineers to that company for some training.

03-30-2011, 03:23 PM	#27
Hound Tooth Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Williston, VT Posts: 268	Originally posted by amoringello I would normally argue that Pentax should be the authority on their own DNG file format.. but from the statements above, this is obviously a fallacy. The guy obviously made up a story to get me to go away. To be clear, Pentax doesn't have a special DNG format. The DNG format belongs to Adobe, and Pentax makes use of it. DNG is pretty universal, and Pentax does nothing custom with it. This is why a K-5 DNG could be opened in most RAW processing applications long before the K-5 was officially supported. The only difference was in cropping out the extraneous pixels along the edges. My guess is that ACR has some bug in its interpretation of certain RAW parameters, and this bug has been directly duplicated by other RAW processing software who license the DNG format library from Adobe (like Silkypix/DCU). Most likely this parameter gets introduced only under specific conditions (ie. multi-exposure). This wouldn't be the first time that Adobe software can't read its own format properly. Meanwhile, RAW processors that created their own DNG library instead of licensing it (ie. dcraw, Bibble, etc.) don't have this issue. So it's entirely possible that this isn't Pentax's fault at all.

03-30-2011, 03:36 PM	#28
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	he, he, yeah, sorry I meant RAW. But either way, both PEF and DNG are having the same issue so its the core data being generated by pentax that is a problem. The "problem" does not exist with K7 or K10 (PEF nor DNG), so it being a flaw in PhotoShop, DCU or Aperture really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Although the statement of licensed DNG libs v.s. custom built ones makes sense as well. Your guess is as good as anyone else's at this point. It is certainly interesting that dcraw and Bibble do not exhibit a problem. It find it more interesting that K7 and K10 files do not either.

03-31-2011, 01:31 AM	#29
sterretje Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Roodepoort, South Africa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,561	Originally posted by amoringello OK, heard from Pentax again... That was quick. Sounds like this is "intended behavior". Perhaps not expected, but there we are. I'll give Adobe a try and see if they think their issue covers Pentax as well as Nikon. Bet they'll get right on that. They did not say 'intended'; they said 'known' which might still imply a bug

03-31-2011, 02:24 AM	#30
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562 Original Poster	From the context of the full text, it seems to infer that they feel this is something that cannot be fixed. Therefore the current behavior is intended, or perhaps 'acceptable' might be a better term... just not used as often to describe this type of issue. Regardless, the fact is that this does not happen on the K7 nor the K10, so Pentax is lying (or this person at Pentax Support is lying). I do not believe any of the statements that I have been given so far as being accurate. They asked for my phone number so that a tech can discuss the issue. We'll see where that leads.