[virgilr]

Ok, so I'm in a bit of a quandary.

I've seen all these great deals on the chinese focusing screens, and I'm thinking "wow, that would be great to try with my K and M manual focus glass!".

But- my other two lenses that are AF and are used all the time when I'm on walkabout shoots are an 18-55 kit and a tammy 28-200. Of course both of these guys are going to be at f/5.6 when out at the long end of the zoom. So, is blackout in the center prism going to drive me nuts with a cheap screen, esp. when I hand the camera to my wife? I'm afraid so!

That begs the question: does one fork out for a Katz Eye at 150.00 US (which becomes closer to 200.00 for me in CAD!), get the optibrite option, and pray that the metering isn't all over the place?

Or, do I soak money into more AF lenses? I really don't mind focusing manually- I just want a better focus screen when shooting indoors with my manual glass in dim light so I don't have to throw out 2 out of 3 shots!

Acck!

Whatcha all think- all opinions and experiences appreciated!

[mycarsoots]

I'm considering the same thing since manual focusing is not the strong suit of the K10D OEM screen.

Some of the Chinese focus screens looks like they are made with an old recycled screen and a Dremel tool! I can plainly see the wavy grinding marks on the screen edges! My experiences with Chinese products like this have been almost universally bad. Poor quality materials and inferior workmanship have been the norm.

Does anyone know how KatzEye makes their screens? Are they resized from existing screens, or are they custom made for each camera model? I'd order from them if for no other reason than they are in the good 'ole USA!

[wildlifephotog]

First, if you are using an AF lens, who cares if it blacks out. The AF is not effected.

Second, not all the screens black out at 5.6. I use ME Super screens and have not had one black out at 5.6.

As to the Chinese screens. Many folks on the forum have bought them and they seem to be quite happy. It would be best to check on the the ebay sellers who have supplied the best ones.

[virgilr]

wildlife-

Are you using ME super screens on film bodies or digital?

If you are using these screens on digital, did you cut them down yourself, or purchase them from someone?

Just curious- seems like the only two options are paying out the nose for a Katz Eye or taking chances with a Chinese screen.

[wildlifephotog]

I make my own screens for my digitals.

And I don't use a Dremel.

It all depends on whether you are comfortable working with small, specialized stuff. I don't find making one to be all that big a deal.

There is a very good review by Pentaxpoke in another area right now.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/46978-my-k20d-katz...-pictures.html

[virgilr]

Weeel, after reading that thread RE the Katz Eye, I pulled the trigger!

It's a birthday gift, anyways.. Of course, I have to do the research and find my own gifts, but... hehe, it's worth it.

I decided I really want to enjoy the glass I have- I love my M 50/1.7 and K 30/2.8, I just get really frustrated with these lenses and shooting in dim light. I mean, wide open, to get decent focus with the 30mm on anything is just no fun! I don't find the feedback precise enough from the stock focusing screen to discern focus. And the 50mm wide open- well, we all know how frustrating that can be!

So, after weighing all the options, paying exchange, extra shipping, and then not being completely satisfied with a chinese screen, I decided to pony up and go for the Katz Eye. I spoke with Rachel- she was extremely helpful and honest! I did pop the extra for the optibrite, since I do like to stick a superzoom on and go walking about.

Anyways, that thread was a great help in deciding- and at least I got 16 bucks off with the winter deal!

I'll post my findings after my birthday next week as to how I feel about this screen.

[Jewelltrail]

mycarsoots: Some of the Chinese focus screens looks like they are made with an old recycled screen and a Dremel tool! I can plainly see the wavy grinding marks on the screen edges! My experiences with Chinese products like this have been almost universally bad. Poor quality materials and inferior workmanship have been the norm.

I am happy with my Chinese screen. The seller says he made it from an old K1000 screen and it performs very well. I also owned a Katzeye, with optibright, but sent it back after I compared it to my Chinese prism: I had to search to see a difference in performance between the two, but did not have to search to see the difference each made on my credit card. The Katzeye may have had a better prism, but the split itself I give the nod to the Chinese screen, mainly because it is a diagonal one. The diagonal allows me to find focus with both vertical and horizontal lines, but the split of the Katzeye only allows focus with vertical lines. Sure, you could turn the camera with Katzeye screen sideways to focus. The Katzeye would blackout all over the aperture range, depending on the lens used, but the Chinese prism is very consistent, usually blacking out between 5.6 to f8.

And first impressions go to the Chinese prism. The Chinese packaging and tooling is better than the Katzeye. The KE screen comes in a little plastic tray, held in place by foam rubber. On my KE screen, the foam rubber was badly faded around the perimeter of the prism itself, leading me to believe it had been sitting in there a long. long time. It also comes with a feeble little tweezer-like tool. The Chinese screen comes with finger condoms and a better tweezer-like tool for grasping the screen. But, more importantly, the Chinese screen is shielded in a thin sheet of plastic on both sides, much like good Plexiglas is sold.

And go figure this one--the KE ships from less than a 100 miles from me for more money than the Chinese screen shipped from Shang Hi China.

Don't get me wrong, the KE screen is a nice addition to the K20, but the Chinese screen, at $135 less is a much better addition. I really expect to see something in the KE which makes me say "okay, it is worth $165." Oh, I think I do see something in the marketing and in the name of the tool itself--it is kind of catchy.

Chinese screen vs Katzeye with Optibright

[woof]

But- my other two lenses that are AF and are used all the time when I'm on walkabout shoots are an 18-55 kit and a tammy 28-200. Of course both of these guys are going to be at f/5.6 when out at the long end of the zoom.

Can I ask some apparently stupid questions here?

With respect to blacking out... two questions...

I have been a film user... for... er... well... since disco. Anyone who ever used a manual camera with a split prism and stopped a lens down knows what blackout is. I became aware of this in 1972 when Dad let me try his Nikon F.

So please understand that my questions come from that viewpoint, as well as from the viewpoint of having also been in the digital world now for some years. The questions then...

1. I am at a total loss as to how you would experience blackout with a 18-55 kit lens and a tammy 28-200. Neither stops down until the shutter is released. They are effectively wide open. They may be set to 5.6 but they will not be AT 5.6 until the picture is taken. What does blackout have to do with AF lenses?

2. With respect to manual lenses that do not automatically stop down. I was taught the following procedure in manual film shooting where the camera did not perform open aperture metering. Spotmatic SP for example: a. open lens to max aperture or keep auto on and meter off - meaning the lens aperture is wide open. b. focus using bright field focusing; the idea here is that after about f/5.6 it's going to be hard to focus anyway unless you are wide open... especially in lower light situations or where there is a lack of contrast; c. after focusing, turn on meter, which will stop lens down, and set aperture per meter; d. compose and shoot.

Now, that workflow can be executed in many orders, but let's just assume that is the best one for the digital version of the flow. If you do things in this manner, which is the way Pentax has recommended doing it FOREVER, what is the issue with blackout? I've never, ever understood it.

In short, my question is: "If you focus wide open and then compose, stop down, and shoot, what does blackout matter?" What am I missing?

woof!

[newarts]

In my satisfying experience with a $29 Shanghai focusing screen I note that auto focus feedback (the green hexagon) continues to function after the prism has "blacked out", effectively solving that problem.

I also note that if my eye's optic axis is aligned with the lens' optic axis, blackout is moderated.

I have not yet sorted out what effect the prism may have on metering, but any such effect doesn't seem obvious.

I tend to shoot with fairly wide apertures so am not particularly worried about manually stopping down to f/8 etc. In fact, I can't recall ever manually stopping down so far while focusing. On the other hand I have no lenses with minimum f/stop greater than f/4.

Dave

[virgilr]

Can I ask some apparently stupid questions here?

With respect to blacking out... two questions...

I have been a film user... for... er... well... since disco. Anyone who ever used a manual camera with a split prism and stopped a lens down knows what blackout is. I became aware of this in 1972 when Dad let me try his Nikon F.

So please understand that my questions come from that viewpoint, as well as from the viewpoint of having also been in the digital world now for some years. The questions then...

1. I am at a total loss as to how you would experience blackout with a 18-55 kit lens and a tammy 28-200. Neither stops down until the shutter is released. They are effectively wide open. They may be set to 5.6 but they will not be AT 5.6 until the picture is taken. What does blackout have to do with AF lenses?

2. With respect to manual lenses that do not automatically stop down. I was taught the following procedure in manual film shooting where the camera did not perform open aperture metering. Spotmatic SP for example: a. open lens to max aperture or keep auto on and meter off - meaning the lens aperture is wide open. b. focus using bright field focusing; the idea here is that after about f/5.6 it's going to be hard to focus anyway unless you are wide open... especially in lower light situations or where there is a lack of contrast; c. after focusing, turn on meter, which will stop lens down, and set aperture per meter; d. compose and shoot.

woof!

As for point 1, maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the functionality of the zoom lenses I own that have variable aperture depending on focal length. My assumption was, due to the fact that the rear element moves forward into the lens body, that the effective aperture when the iris is wide open is reduced as the rear element moves forward as the zoom is used towards the longer focal length.

Therefore, my assumption was, when the zoom is longer, the rear element is moved out from the sensor plane, therefore giving an actual effective aperture of lets say f/5.6 in the case of the kit lens. Perhaps this is the wrong assumption?

Therefore, I was concerned that perhaps a chinese screen that was cut from a K1000 screen that has lower brightness might black out in the split focus prism at f/5.6, or require careful eye placement to minimize this problem. I also understand that AF will still work in this case (as AF isn't affected by the focus screen), but this concern is mostly for my wife when she takes the camera and she gets irritated that the middle of the area she is focusing on is black. She also wears glasses, so for her to "tweak" her eye position isn't obvious, and I just want to keep the experience of sharing creativity together fun!

As for point 2, I understand how my K100DS functions in terms of aperture- That the iris is held wide open for focusing purposes until the time of actually capturing the image, when the iris closes to the desired f stop for the brief period of time that the image is captured. This holds true for both auto aperture lenses or K mount (not M42!) lenses with an aperture ring where the camera body either moves the iris actuator to the appropriate position for the f stop desired, or if the aperture ring is used, the camera "stops down" the lens when the image is taken by releasing tension on the iris actuator, allowing the iris to close to the aperture set on the ring.

I also understand that the electronic information is required from auto exposure lenses so that the camera can determine via its internal processor the best exposure for the shot when using "A" mode on the lens, given the fact that the processor evaluates the requested exposure area (full screen, center weighted or spot), and that as I adjust the aperture on the camera body, it is basing it's evaluation for exposure on the characteristics of the lens transmitted electronically as well as it's internal tables given all the factors of the scene presented to it. I understand that when using the aperture ring of any lens, that the camera is then in a state where it can't use this information from the lens, and that the exposure is based on a much simpler calculation for exposure. That is why often times exposure with manual lenses needs to be compensated for.

Of course I use the AE lock button to have the camera determine the correct shutter speed (or "stop down") the lens before I actually take the shot. And I understand that if you have the lens at it's maximum aperture, that you can use the camera in either Av or Tv modes, since the aperture will not change between when focusing is taking place to when the actual image is captured.

This wasn't so much an issue for me with the manual glass- mostly I want to invest in a tool that has been designed to do it's job for the equipment that I'm using.

As for the issue that JewelTrail noted in regards to the Katz Eye screen: I'm wondering when that screen was acquired? I do know that the issues of blackout have been somewhat mitigated in the newer screens with the inclusion of the "Plus prism" feature in all Pentax screens- which, after speaking to Rachel, she confirmed that this really does make a difference, and that blackout is mitigated in it's effects up to around f/11. She didn't claim it would be perfect for every lens, but that it definitely helps. She also confirmed that spot metering can be weirded out, tending to underexpose due to the brighter Plus Prism area. I consider that decent of her to admit that! I rarely use spot- normally center weighted average, which she said can still be a little odd, but much easier to compensate for.

As well, I had noted in the PDF for installation instructions for the K100D super, the tool shown looked to be a bit of an improvement as to what I've seen in other reviews/screenshots of the installation procedure. It seems to be a "reverse" spring loaded tool that opens when you squeeze and closes when you release, and that has a special nib on the outside of the tip to aid in releasing the screen tension bracket. As to latex finger gloves- I'll just use my nitrocellulose gloves that I have for other purposes.

JewelTrail is absolutely right, though- a diagonal split prism is so much more useful than the horizontal prism in the Katz Eye screens. I'm mostly concerned with close focusing in low light, so I'm hoping the microprism collar will be the most help for me.

I know it may seem I'm just justifying my ridiculous outlay of funds, but I did consider many of the points made in the last few replies to this post. I just decided that given that the Katz Eye screens seemed more suited to my use from what I could gather, it would better to spend the extra on something that seems that it will fit my needs. And if it doesn't, at least I can return it!

[stevebrot]

There is one practical issue that I have not seen addressed regarding the Katz Eye vs. the Chinese screens. That being:

The Katz Eye has that strange engraved circle around the ground glass donut.

While it is not immediately obvious, this circle is very, very handy. In the absence of focus marks, grids or other engravings, it provides something for the eye to focus on when adjusting the viewfinder diopter. Maybe not worth the extra bucks, but still...

Steve

[unkabin]

Woof: I've been trying to understand the same thing. I have to think most of the concern comes from people who haven't used older SLRs, where split-screens were the norm--and did a wonderful job. Granted, there are long f8 lenses, but I don't think this is the problem for which most people are looking for a solution. For the most part it feels like a solution looking for a problem Something like that, anyway.

[virgilr]

unkabin-

I think you're right in that "it's a solution looking for a problem". I found my problem to specific enough that this solution hopefully will fit!

1. Better focusing with my manual glass- I actually shot on AE1's back in the 80's, and was a bit dismayed NOT to find a split prism viewfinder in modern DSLR's.
2. A screen that will still be useable for modern AF lenses, and when others use my camera, everything will be bright and simple with no caveats.

I think that is what Katz Eye is trying to do. It's not easy- two different worlds, in terms of design (from the film SLR's of the past to Digital of now). I'm just hoping it will fit the bill for me!

[unkabin]

virglr, I'm sure it'll be nice. It sounds, too, like Katzeye is good about refunds, so you don't risk anything.

[mycarsoots]

Jewelltrail............Good info...can you tell me the seller's name? I'm willing to try it out considering the typical price of the Chinese screens.

thanks!