Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Sorry for the confusion. Maybe the image in this article will help:
Image sensor format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1/1.7" is the largest digital sensor I know in compact cameras. The Nikon 1 CX sensor is the next largest one, but that would be disallowed because of the interchangeable lenses anyway. I just wanted to take out of the contest cameras like the X100.
Were you using one? I didn't notice or I thought the name referred to a digital one. I didn't target anyone with my rule change.
The reason I changed the rules is because to me this contest is interesting for comparing what we can obtain from similar technology. Today, all compact cameras use small sensors and as a result they are limited in DOF control and low light performance. We have endless discussions about the benefit of FF sensors and how APS sensors are limited in comparison. Film technology, on the other side, doesn't seem to suffer from this issue - both DSLRs and P&S cameras were made to use the same 135mm film. Sure, there were some smaller format film P&S, but since I haven't noticed much film use in this part of the forum, I thought it is simpler to just disallow film cameras completely than to describe the film size that should be allowed to match the sensor size restriction on the digital counterparts. That is pretty much my thinking behind the change of rules and I didn't think anyone would be affected by excluding film cameras.
As long as I have been participating in this Point and Shoot contest, the rules have allowed film cameras. Even though I didn't use a film camera in this, or the last one, I have used them in the past. I have used many, many film cameras in the past, as well as my share of digitals. I have used my Optio A40 recently because I usually carry a Large Format camera, rather than a 35mm non-SLR, so it was either that or the phone, since the A40 is always with me, and it will likely always be my sidearm camera for when I'm not specifically carrying anything else. In contests past I have used 35mm rangefinder and zone-focus cameras, and I rallied for MONTHS to get medium-format Box/Folding/Holga cameras allowed on the basis that they are point and shoots, and was finally met with consent. I redid the rules when the point and shoot contest came to me to reflect, as concisely as I could manage, the rules changes we all kind of agreed on. Yes, I know, as the contest winner you get to make the rules, but I did put in a serious amount of effort, arguing for my cause, before the ice broke and I got people to agree with me. To those of you who felt sorry for me or saw the wisdom in what I was saying, I think I still owe you a debt of thanks.
I think, though, that judging a camera as a point and shoot or not based purely on its sensor size is folly, and judging a film camera to be superior to a digital based purely on its frame size is equally so. Point and shoot is much more a function of usage and control than it is of purely sensor size. A Holga has a "sensor" dozens of times larger than a typical point and shoot digital camera, but I'd consider the Point and Shoot superior in every way.
This is why we had long discussions, including my "What is, and is not, a point and shoot" thread, about the nature of point and shoot cameras. I believe, and I think rightly so, that sensor size is not all there is to wether a point and shoot is a point and shoot. For instance, you say you have no depth of field control with a small sensor. Well, on a scale-focus 120 camera, you don't either! Many of these cameras have extremely limited apertures (f/8 wide open...) and rudimentary scale-focus, which you can't trust for shallow DoF shots. Not only that, but many of these cameras used large film to overcome the inherent limitations of the optics to produce a sharp image. A medium format camera from 1917 like my Kodak Autographic Brownie No. 2 that I used for the "Night Shots" contest used a 6x8cm film frame, but couldn't be relied upon to make bigger than an 8x10 enlargement with any sharpness because it has pretty crappy optics.
It is NOT about frame size, it is about focusing accuracy, exposure control, and challenging the photographer to work within limitations. The current rules, as you've rewritten them, don't exclude pro-level cameras like the Canon PowerShot G12. If the rules state that a Canon PowerShot G12 with its 1/1.7 sensor, but ISO dial, exposure comp, manual exposure, manual focus, live view, etc, IS a point and shoot, but a Kodak Funsaver disposable camera with only one physical control is NOT a point and shoot, I have to take serious issue with that.
I have used my digitals before, and have used my A40 almost exclusively for months, mostly for lack of opportunity to use my film cameras. Excluding such a wide range of fun cameras from use in this contest in an effort to simplify the rules seems backwards to me, and though I can always grab my digital, I believe most of my best work is done on film. That's why I haven't so much as placed in the past six months, while i've been digital only, and why I didn't even rate so much as a mention in last month's contest.
Frankly, I like the idea of being able to use my film cameras for these. I also know I'm not the only user to do so, at least not as far back as the Black and White contest (Where at least one other person shot film). I just don't think excluding the film cameras is a good idea, but it IS your choice, just as it's my choice whether or not I want to participate. I just don't think excluding film cameras on the basis of "simplifying the rules" is all that good a move. But I'm probably the only one here who cares.
Originally posted by Bart I'm sorry to see film cameras are gone but I do believe the general consensus is that the winner sets the rules for the contest. They can indeed always be changed in the next one.
Erik, this might be an extra motivation? You do have a an Optio A40, don't you?
Judging by the relative lack of acclaim for my more recent images, I don't hold out much hope for my winning so I can switch the rules back to allow film. If I do win, though, look out for the changes. I think "Camera cannot use batteries" is a pretty fun rule, don't you?
Originally posted by ivoire You won and get to make the rules plus i get the level the field notion. I'm fine with whatever the winner (You) of the competition decides. That said, I do like the 'more the merrier' and would allow film for that reason.
It is the judge's party, and he gets to say what counts. I just don't like it. I've said what needs to be said, and either he will see my side and change or he won't. Either way, I think now I've really banged on about this too much, and I won't spend another wasted word trying to get people not to turn their backs on over a century of photographic history. If this is to be a digital only party, that's fine. I'll just go shoot Large Format, and console myself with the smell of photo-sensitive acetate sheets.