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06-18-2011, 09:43 PM   #1
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Learning a Rangefinder

I'm sorry that this is not pentax related but here goes...
Recently, I found a nice Canonet QL17 at an antique mall for only $40 so I decided to snap it up to use as a supplement to my film SLRs. I was excited to use a new type of camera, but in practice, I found it quite hard to use, and not very fast to focus, as people usually rave about with rangefinders.
Has anyone else experienced this when using their first rangefinder? Are there any tips you have for getting accustomed to rangefinder shooting?

06-19-2011, 12:49 AM   #2
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I have used the QL17, but it was back in the 1980s. It took great photos.

First of all, you need good eyesight or good glasses. I don't recall if there is a diopter adjustment on the QL17, but if there is make sure that it is adjusted properly for your eyesight. Secondly, to use a rangefinder you need to practice a bit, and it will get easier, and faster but it may never be as good as modern day AF.

The one situation where it may be better is under very poor lighting when AF will not work. at night it is still possible to focus a RF camera using a single point of light, like a street light or even a star.
06-19-2011, 04:47 AM   #3
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First, let me congratulate you for being willing to try something new and different.

With the Canonet, one thing that may have happened over time is the rf patch may be faded now, making it harder to see. A bit of tape on the main window, where the rf patch is to your eye, sometimes helps.

The other thing with rf shooting is you have to give up a little precision, in many situations. Actually you do so with manual focus slrs as well. With a bit of experience you know where to prefocus... And yes, with a little getting used to the rf thing becomes easier.
06-19-2011, 09:07 AM   #4
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it may be the rangefinder of your rangefinder making it difficult, but I've never used a canonet, nor do I know the condition of yours. it could be as nester has said, or maybe you were expecting too much? I know the viewfinder in my Bessa R3a is sublime, it makes focusing easier than anything I have ever used before, and I can focus far faster manually with that in most situations than my K-7 will in AF. compared to my lowly Petri 7s though and I can see where you might be coming from. how well illuminated is your rangefinder patch and frame lines, when you look through the viewfinder? or maybe your rangefinder has fallen out of calibration? are you getting out of focus images on film when they were in focus in the viewfinder or is it just difficult to focus looking in the viewfinder?

06-19-2011, 09:33 AM   #5
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Hi, thanks for the responses. Regarding the rf patch, it's actually quite clear. Ive been holding off on purchasing a rangefinder for a while because all of the other ones that I came across have the faded viewfinder. This was the first one with a clear view.
06-19-2011, 09:53 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Super A-wesome Quote
Hi, thanks for the responses. Regarding the rf patch, it's actually quite clear. Ive been holding off on purchasing a rangefinder for a while because all of the other ones that I came across have the faded viewfinder. This was the first one with a clear view.
well as long as its in proper alignment, it should get easier with time. I know the price difference between your fixed lens canonet and my M mount Bessa is huge, but I can say that the 1:1 viewfinder in this thing truly lives up to the 'hype' of rangefinder ease of use in terms of focusing. better than most, if not all Leica's.(better than my M3) the best I can say is practice? it is very different from using an SLR. I wouldn't consider a rangefinder to be 'faster' to focus in typical use than a quality film SLR with a quality manual focusing screen. say for example the MX. at least not by a large margin anyway. just 'different'. easier in some situations, less so in others.
06-20-2011, 11:01 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
t 'different'. easier in some situations, less so in others.
Exactly...I have been doing a far amount of rangefinder work lately and my experience has been that focus is not necessarily faster, but you approach it differently. I honestly do very different work with the rangefinders than with the SLRs. Maybe it is the viewfinder's lack of accuracy. (What you see is definitely not what you get.) Maybe it is the difference in handling. Maybe it is the ... heck I don't know except that I take really bizarre photos with the rangefinders with the possible exception of the Kiev. It seems to be a little more stodgy. (Example below: )


Kiev-4A, LZOS Jupiter-12 35/2


Steve

06-21-2011, 12:11 AM   #8
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I wonder how different my viewfinder is from a typical rangefinder like a fixed lens type from the 60s and 70s or a modern leica? I have an M3 and petri 7s (the color35 is a scale focus camera) the M3 is nice. big and bright. but the viewfinder in my bessa is 1:1 and I don't even have to close one eye to focus. its really that good. under normal circumstances my photos are pretty close in terms of what I 'got' versus what I 'saw'. never 100 percent of course, but close enough in most cases for me to not even think about it. my normal lens is 40mm by the way.
06-21-2011, 08:55 PM   #9
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I've finished my first roll from it now; it's a weird feeling using one, and was so used to being reassured by the mirror slap that i got the shot, but the leaf shutter is just so quiet. there are many subtleties like that when using a rangefinder for the first time, it's just about as big of a transition going from SLR to Rangefinder as it was from Digital to Film for me. hopefully, the results will be good, I'll post 'em when I get the roll processed
06-21-2011, 09:37 PM   #10
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In many circles, a rangefinder is *the* camera for candid street photography, being a lot less of an intrusion than an SLR (at least, perceived as such), and so much quieter. Also, the QL17 has such a fast lens that it's a natural for available light photography, and a good pick for places like museums and churches for the aforementioned reasons. Some folks get really good at zone focusing and shooting from the hip... though I haven't really tried it yet.

I recently picked up a GIII QL17 for $25 with a sticky shutter. I'm looking for a shop that can fix it. Mark Hama will go through it stem-to-stern for $125, well worth the cost for such a nice specimen.
06-22-2011, 03:00 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by spacer Quote
In many circles, a rangefinder is *the* camera for candid street photography, being a lot less of an intrusion than an SLR (at least, perceived as such), and so much quieter. Also, the QL17 has such a fast lens that it's a natural for available light photography, and a good pick for places like museums and churches for the aforementioned reasons. Some folks get really good at zone focusing and shooting from the hip... though I haven't really tried it yet.

I recently picked up a GIII QL17 for $25 with a sticky shutter. I'm looking for a shop that can fix it. Mark Hama will go through it stem-to-stern for $125, well worth the cost for such a nice specimen.
your ideas on this are spot on, except I never understood the idea of being 'quieter' as a real advantage in 'street' photography. I think its only a user perceived advantage in all honesty. I have a K-7 and I have done some street photography with it and I have never even noticed a time when the mirror sound could ever actually be heard by the person or people I was photographing. I highly doubt on a street, it would ever be really audible enough to actually somehow interupt something you were photographing. rangefinders were the main camera of choice when this type of photography fist became popular because they were generally the smallest, lightest and less noticeable camera you could carry, versus something like a TLR or god forbid, something larger. and the 'modern' SLR was really a nonexistent thing at the time. let us not forget that Asahi Optical basically ushered in the SLR in the 50's. Leica had long before that, established the rangefinder as the defacto hand held 35mm camera. in the modern world, the reason why the rangefinder is still seen as the 'best' street camera is the same reason it allays has been. (it hasn't really changed) its small, unobtrusive and doesn't look like the the sort of camera most people are used to seeing. people see a big SLR with a big lens, they react a certain way. they are used to seeing them, they stand out. you put a rangefinder to your eye to take a photo people don't notice it because they haven't been 'self trained' through constant exposure to instantly recognize its presence. and thats what its all about. presence. while noise can certainly play a big roll in that, on the street its a non-issue. because people are reacting to what they see, not what they hear in regards to the camera. I'm certain of that.

I know how odd it is to first use a rangefinder, because we are all used to hearing and seeing certain things operating to let us know everything happened as it should. the mirror sound, the shutter, the brief blackout in the viewfinder, etc. these are things that are perceived and experienced by the user and when they change or become nonexistent its perceived as being more 'stealthy', but that stealth is only something we the user experience, because on the other side of the lens the subject wouldn't know the difference.
06-22-2011, 09:52 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
...the reason why the rangefinder is still seen as the 'best' street camera is the same reason it allays has been. (it hasn't really changed) its small, unobtrusive and doesn't look like the the sort of camera most people are used to seeing.
That last point is the key. People think it is a toy. As for sound, streets and other public places are often noisy, but for some reason people's ears are VERY attuned to the sound of a SLR shutter. A quiet focal plane as in my Canon P still gets some attention while a leaf shutter generates little or no alarm. (Heck, sometimes I can't tell when the shutter on my XA goes off!)

As for size...for the most part, most common 35mm rangefinders are not that much smaller than a compact 35mm SLR. Here are my smallest with my smallest:




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06-22-2011, 09:52 AM   #13
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I started off a zillion years ago with box cameras and their quasi-TLR kin; my childhood Kodak Brownie Starlet, resurrected, looks down on me from a shelf right now. Street-silent, indeed! But the move to folders meant I had to learn to focus. Bother. That's what distinguishes any P&S from more advanced cameras, the amount of actual work and thought required.

The old camera upon which I really learned photography was a German 1934 Kodak Retina I, the very first 135 camera, with totally manual shutter, aperture, and focus. (No, I didn't get it new, I ain't *that* old.) I learned to focus by pacing-off distances, guesstimation -- and use a handheld meter for exposure -- and after a few intensive months, it all became internalized, automatic. See the scene, unconsciously move fingers to adjust the camera, and shoot.

My first real TLR (Yashicamat 124G) and RF (Yashica GSN Electro 35) were revelations. I can see the focus! No more guesstimation! And they have built-in meters! Then an SLR with TTL metering was frightfully easy. Point, meter, focus, shoot, ho-hum. And that half-frame Olympus Pen-FT had such a small mirror, it was hardly louder than the leaf shutters. Still street-silent! Although not nearly as unobtrusive as any modern digital P&S.

The Retina and Yashicamat are long gone now, replaced (sort of) by a Voigtlander Vito II, and my dad's old Argus-E and Minolta Autocord TLR's, respectively. The Pen-FT is gone too. I still have a Yashica GSN, but my street RF of choice is now the Petri 7S with 45/1.8 Amber-C lens, a cult classic and for good reason. Fast lens, silent shutter, solar-powered selenium meter (no batteries!). I have Dad's 7S also, but it's only with the 45/2.8 C lens.

Still, anything you hold up to your face to use, will be perceived as a camera. So for stealthier street shooting, use something with a top VF. I have two favorites there: Dad's compact old Argus-E TLR; and a Praktica FX3 SLR. The Mir-1 37/2.8 lens with its weirdly-placed markings seems to have been made for the FX3 -- peer past the top VF and all is revealed! But top VF's are weird to learn and use, since the images are reversed, so the photographer's movements are counter-intuitive. Ah, time for a few more months of intensive practice, eh?

Going from a box or P&S to anything else; from an eye-level VF to anything else; from RF to TLR to SLR -- all these just require learning different habits. After awhile, they seem natural.
06-22-2011, 10:11 AM   #14
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This is the third time I'm composing this reply... internet problems

The noise, size and obtrusiveness, in most situations, is more photographer-psychological, I agree.

Here's where post Leica M3 view finders have advantages over other systems:
1. the vf shows more than what's in the film frame. Therefore you can see what is coming into frame, whether by them moving, or by you re-framing. Once the eye is used to this it becomes very fluid and fast. SLR vf by contrast will usually show less than what is in the frame.
2. if the vf is bright and large you see better: in low light, regardless of speed of lens, or filters used.

Psychologically I find myself more 'inside' the camera vf when shooting metered SLRs, while I'm equally 'outside' when using a RF - more aware of the externals of the camera and scene. This is probably habit more than anything else.

And actually, shooting with a vintage camera may even be an anti-stealth advantage these days, as people think it's cute or interesting or cool, better than those black plastic monstrosities pointed at them.
06-22-2011, 10:19 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
But top VF's are weird to learn and use, since the images are reversed, so the photographer's movements are counter-intuitive.
So true! I bought my Yashica-44 with street shooting in mind, but have yet to come to grips with the viewfinder. There is also the issue of scanning the 127 negs...


Steve
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