Advice on B&W conversions?

KierraElizabeth · 11-07-2009, 01:17 PM

I'm having some difficulty with my black and white conversions--I've not ever really been satisfied with the B&Ws I am turning out, at least not since I stopped shooting film

. I use CS3 if it makes a difference. I'd like some opinions on areas that need improvement. I think they are coming out a little bit flat. This is one of the ones that I think is the best I've managed, though I think there is still something to be desired? I'll place the color and B&W in case the issue is really in the original rendering.
Any advice is definitely appreciated.

Please excuse the obnoxious "watermark"--they were done for a friend of a friend.

flippedgazelle · 11-07-2009, 01:24 PM

My advice would be - don't take any advice from me on B&W conversions!

Very cute photo.

**Ash** · 11-07-2009, 01:41 PM

Kierra, B&W conversion can be done in a myriad of ways. I'm not all that good at it either, but CS3 does have a good function you can use to get the desired effect. The Black & White tool under Image -> Adjustments provides for such fine adjustments to each colour channel that you can get a variety of results based on your taste. With skin tones, it's the Red and Yellow channels that make the biggest difference. Then I find that after the conversion, some extra contrast may need to be added by virtue of the flat initial result you can get.

It's about experimenting as much as it is about knowing what to do...

mithrandir · 11-07-2009, 01:48 PM

I am not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I used Dynamic Photo HDR to apply a eye catching contrast curve to the color version and then converted it to B&W:

Attached Images

SWEngineer · 11-07-2009, 01:55 PM

My 2c

I think you overdid the contrast a bit in the baby's head and hands. Some of these areas have gone fully black. And the baby's face seems a bit too bright. That said, I don't think this image works very well in B&W. The white shirt and white areas of the football become big (or bigger) distractions. In the color image, the color of the baby's skin contrasts nicely with the rest of the image, making it easy to focus on the baby. In the B&W version, the contrast vanishes and the bright areas dominate. Perhaps that is why you pushed the contrast like you did? You might still get a good B&W out of this image, but it will take a lot of work taming the white areas.

CS3 is more that capable of generating great B&W conversions. But you need to be comfortable with the many tools and techniques that can be used. Then as Ash noted, experimenting is key. But at least as important, in my opinion, is knowing when color makes the image work (as it does here). In such cases, B&W conversion may never work well, no matter your skill.

EdMaximus · 11-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Great Pic. All you need is Silver Efex Pro for Photoshop. A bit expensive ($199) if you don't have software discount but it's best BW conversion tool out there according to the pros.

Damn Brit · 11-07-2009, 03:43 PM

Moved to Post Processing.

creampuff · 11-07-2009, 04:33 PM

Kierra, you have not stated the method you did the B&W conversion. Even in Photoshop, there are so many ways to carry out B&W conversions, not including the many plug-ins available. Did you used the B&W adjustment tool, by far the easiest method within CS3/CS4?

Basically CS3's targeted adjustment tool (same as Lightroom) allows for adjustment of how each colour data is converted to B&W, which is far more precise than the traditional methods like the channel mixer method. Banding and subtle gradations come out smoother.

**janosh** · 11-07-2009, 05:48 PM

If you do a lot of this type of work, or portraits, or weddings, you'll want Lightroom's unique "Clarity" adjustment. Reducing Clarity a little, perhaps with local contrast tweaking (maybe eyes/hair/lips) easily emulates Zeiss Softar filtration, which was an almost-always tool in portraiture, especially with 120 ...Softar was essential to virtually every Hasselblad fashion photo and many rock&roll promos from that era, not to mention the formal portraits. As well, Lightroom does B&W conversions wonderfully well in various ways, all easier than Photoshop's. Lightroom's Clarity adjustment will eliminate the inevitable infant skin glitches (obvious even on our monitors) without noticable softening if you use it carefully.

FHPhotographer · 11-07-2009, 06:02 PM

I've used just about every technique in CS3 and CS4, and nothing touches Nik Silver Efex Pro as a plug-in for PS. It's expensive, but it has a trial download and it's really worth taking a look. Of particular use is being able to change brightness/contrast/structure area by area using the Control Points, then pick a filter and/or film type to get exactly the tonal gradations you want. I've found the quick n' dirty method is to import, copy the layer and run the auto tone, contrast and color, backing off each in opacity as needed; then run a sharpening, then the Silver Efex because it allows you to introduce grain and you don't want to be sharpening the grain. Good luck,
Brian

k100d · 11-07-2009, 06:23 PM

keitha from our forum had some good stuff on her thought process
A Scenic World Blog Archive Why Do You Do the Things You Do?

MPrince · 11-07-2009, 07:14 PM

You might find this site helpful: Black and White Digital Photography

KierraElizabeth · 11-07-2009, 07:57 PM

Wow! So much quick feedback! Thank you so much!
Thanks for moving, Gary. I debated about where to put this...guess I guessed wrong!

Originally posted by mithrandir

I am not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I used Dynamic Photo HDR to apply a eye catching contrast curve to the color version and then converted it to B&W:

I do definitely see where this is superior in some areas, but my main problem in the conversion of people (and especially children, since that is what is in front of my lens most of the time) is in the skin tone, and it starts to look a little mottled here...I wonder if converting and using some type of skin softening effect would work together?

Originally posted by SWEngineer

My 2c

I think you overdid the contrast a bit in the baby's head and hands. Some of these areas have gone fully black. And the baby's face seems a bit too bright. That said, I don't think this image works very well in B&W. The white shirt and white areas of the football become big (or bigger) distractions. In the color image, the color of the baby's skin contrasts nicely with the rest of the image, making it easy to focus on the baby. In the B&W version, the contrast vanishes and the bright areas dominate. Perhaps that is why you pushed the contrast like you did? You might still get a good B&W out of this image, but it will take a lot of work taming the white areas.

Yes, I definitely see what you mean about the white spaces--I do think that is where it is hurting but I just couldn't see it. I absolutely knew I was losing detail and pushing contrast too far, but less and it looked too flat. Yes, yes, thank you for the new set of eyes.

Originally posted by creampuff

Kierra, you have not stated the method you did the B&W conversion. Even in Photoshop, there are so many ways to carry out B&W conversions, not including the many plug-ins available. Did you used the B&W adjustment tool, by far the easiest method within CS3/CS4?

Basically CS3's targeted adjustment tool (same as Lightroom) allows for adjustment of how each colour data is converted to B&W, which is far more precise than the traditional methods like the channel mixer method. Banding and subtle gradations come out smoother.

When I convert in CS3, I create a new adjustment layer for B&W, using CS3's B&W conversion tool. Is this the same as the targeted adjustment tool? (Forgive my ignorance...

)

Originally posted by janosh

If you do a lot of this type of work, or portraits, or weddings, you'll want Lightroom's unique "Clarity" adjustment. Reducing Clarity a little, perhaps with local contrast tweaking (maybe eyes/hair/lips) easily emulates Zeiss Softar filtration, which was an almost-always tool in portraiture, especially with 120 ...Softar was essential to virtually every Hasselblad fashion photo and many rock&roll promos from that era, not to mention the formal portraits. As well, Lightroom does B&W conversions wonderfully well in various ways, all easier than Photoshop's. Lightroom's Clarity adjustment will eliminate the inevitable infant skin glitches (obvious even on our monitors) without noticable softening if you use it carefully.

I don't really do a lot of this...just for friends and friends of friends. I haven't bought lightroom yet, mostly b/c of limited funds and the fact that I don't really 'need' it... though I keep getting told again and again that I should. The skin tones are really what tends to cause the problem I think, as any splotchiness or mottled areas seem to be exaggerated in the conversion, true.

Originally posted by FHPhotographer

I've used just about every technique in CS3 and CS4, and nothing touches Nik Silver Efex Pro as a plug-in for PS. It's expensive, but it has a trial download and it's really worth taking a look. Of particular use is being able to change brightness/contrast/structure area by area using the Control Points, then pick a filter and/or film type to get exactly the tonal gradations you want. I've found the quick n' dirty method is to import, copy the layer and run the auto tone, contrast and color, backing off each in opacity as needed; then run a sharpening, then the Silver Efex because it allows you to introduce grain and you don't want to be sharpening the grain. Good luck,
Brian

Thanks. I see several have suggested it. I will take a look at it.

Originally posted by k100d

keitha from our forum had some good stuff on her thought process
A Scenic World Blog Archive Why Do You Do the Things You Do?

I have read the article that Keitha did--while it is excellent, I don't speak Lightroom yet, so it didn't make much sense to me....again, maybe I just need to give in and spend the money for LR!

Originally posted by MPrince

You might find this site helpful: Black and White Digital Photography

Thanks for the link. I will spend some time trying to glean some wisdom from the site--it looks pretty expansive...I'm sure I'll use up plenty of time perusing it!

Thanks again to all who chimed in. I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions.

**pacerr** · 11-09-2009, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by afroed

Great Pic. All you need is Silver Efex Pro ... A bit expensive ($199) ... but it's best BW conversion tool out there according to the pros.

I'd suggest you download the 15-day trial version of NIK Silver Efex Pro. Watch the video tutorials on-line then try some conversions. Can be had for about $150 on-line.

This was one of my first attempts with SEP. Superb control of shadows and high lights with many pre-sets.

H2

bbluesman · 11-09-2009, 09:21 PM

Happy Silver EFX user here-extra film look/grain from NIK Color EFX Film Effects

11-07-2009, 01:17 PM	#1
KierraElizabeth Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eastern Idaho Posts: 197	Advice on B&W conversions? I'm having some difficulty with my black and white conversions--I've not ever really been satisfied with the B&Ws I am turning out, at least not since I stopped shooting film . I use CS3 if it makes a difference. I'd like some opinions on areas that need improvement. I think they are coming out a little bit flat. This is one of the ones that I think is the best I've managed, though I think there is still something to be desired? I'll place the color and B&W in case the issue is really in the original rendering. Any advice is definitely appreciated. Please excuse the obnoxious "watermark"--they were done for a friend of a friend.

11-07-2009, 01:48 PM	#4
mithrandir Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,895	Applying Pseudo HDR Contrast Curves I am not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I used Dynamic Photo HDR to apply a eye catching contrast curve to the color version and then converted it to B&W: Attached Images

11-07-2009, 05:48 PM	#9
janosh Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 243	If you do a lot of this type of work, or portraits, or weddings, you'll want Lightroom's unique "Clarity" adjustment. Reducing Clarity a little, perhaps with local contrast tweaking (maybe eyes/hair/lips) easily emulates Zeiss Softar filtration, which was an almost-always tool in portraiture, especially with 120 ...Softar was essential to virtually every Hasselblad fashion photo and many rock&roll promos from that era, not to mention the formal portraits. As well, Lightroom does B&W conversions wonderfully well in various ways, all easier than Photoshop's. Lightroom's Clarity adjustment will eliminate the inevitable infant skin glitches (obvious even on our monitors) without noticable softening if you use it carefully. Last edited by janosh; 11-07-2009 at 05:55 PM.

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11-07-2009, 01:24 PM	#2
flippedgazelle Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NJ, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,270	My advice would be - don't take any advice from me on B&W conversions! Very cute photo.

11-07-2009, 01:41 PM	#3
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Kierra, B&W conversion can be done in a myriad of ways. I'm not all that good at it either, but CS3 does have a good function you can use to get the desired effect. The Black & White tool under Image -> Adjustments provides for such fine adjustments to each colour channel that you can get a variety of results based on your taste. With skin tones, it's the Red and Yellow channels that make the biggest difference. Then I find that after the conversion, some extra contrast may need to be added by virtue of the flat initial result you can get. It's about experimenting as much as it is about knowing what to do...

11-07-2009, 01:55 PM	#5
SWEngineer Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Albuquerque, NM Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 308	My 2c I think you overdid the contrast a bit in the baby's head and hands. Some of these areas have gone fully black. And the baby's face seems a bit too bright. That said, I don't think this image works very well in B&W. The white shirt and white areas of the football become big (or bigger) distractions. In the color image, the color of the baby's skin contrasts nicely with the rest of the image, making it easy to focus on the baby. In the B&W version, the contrast vanishes and the bright areas dominate. Perhaps that is why you pushed the contrast like you did? You might still get a good B&W out of this image, but it will take a lot of work taming the white areas. CS3 is more that capable of generating great B&W conversions. But you need to be comfortable with the many tools and techniques that can be used. Then as Ash noted, experimenting is key. But at least as important, in my opinion, is knowing when color makes the image work (as it does here). In such cases, B&W conversion may never work well, no matter your skill.

11-07-2009, 02:14 PM	#6
EdMaximus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: New York Posts: 318	Great Pic. All you need is Silver Efex Pro for Photoshop. A bit expensive ($199) if you don't have software discount but it's best BW conversion tool out there according to the pros.

11-07-2009, 03:43 PM	#7
Damn Brit Guest	Moved to Post Processing.

11-07-2009, 04:33 PM	#8
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Kierra, you have not stated the method you did the B&W conversion. Even in Photoshop, there are so many ways to carry out B&W conversions, not including the many plug-ins available. Did you used the B&W adjustment tool, by far the easiest method within CS3/CS4? Basically CS3's targeted adjustment tool (same as Lightroom) allows for adjustment of how each colour data is converted to B&W, which is far more precise than the traditional methods like the channel mixer method. Banding and subtle gradations come out smoother.

11-07-2009, 06:02 PM	#10
FHPhotographer Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,297	I've used just about every technique in CS3 and CS4, and nothing touches *Nik Silver Efex Pro* as a plug-in for PS. It's expensive, but it has a trial download and it's really worth taking a look. Of particular use is being able to change brightness/contrast/structure area by area using the Control Points, then pick a filter and/or film type to get exactly the tonal gradations you want. I've found the quick n' dirty method is to import, copy the layer and run the auto tone, contrast and color, backing off each in opacity as needed; then run a sharpening, then the Silver Efex because it allows you to introduce grain and you don't want to be sharpening the grain. Good luck, Brian

11-07-2009, 06:23 PM	#11
k100d Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,911	keitha from our forum had some good stuff on her thought process A Scenic World Blog Archive Why Do You Do the Things You Do?

11-07-2009, 07:14 PM	#12
MPrince Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: WV Posts: 1,495	You might find this site helpful: Black and White Digital Photography

11-07-2009, 07:57 PM	#13
KierraElizabeth Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eastern Idaho Posts: 197 Original Poster	Wow! So much quick feedback! Thank you so much! Thanks for moving, Gary. I debated about where to put this...guess I guessed wrong! Originally posted by mithrandir I am not sure exactly what you are looking for, but I used Dynamic Photo HDR to apply a eye catching contrast curve to the color version and then converted it to B&W: I do definitely see where this is superior in some areas, but my main problem in the conversion of people (and especially children, since that is what is in front of my lens most of the time) is in the skin tone, and it starts to look a little mottled here...I wonder if converting and using some type of skin softening effect would work together? Originally posted by SWEngineer My 2c I think you overdid the contrast a bit in the baby's head and hands. Some of these areas have gone fully black. And the baby's face seems a bit too bright. That said, I don't think this image works very well in B&W. The white shirt and white areas of the football become big (or bigger) distractions. In the color image, the color of the baby's skin contrasts nicely with the rest of the image, making it easy to focus on the baby. In the B&W version, the contrast vanishes and the bright areas dominate. Perhaps that is why you pushed the contrast like you did? You might still get a good B&W out of this image, but it will take a lot of work taming the white areas. Yes, I definitely see what you mean about the white spaces--I do think that is where it is hurting but I just couldn't see it. I absolutely knew I was losing detail and pushing contrast too far, but less and it looked too flat. Yes, yes, thank you for the new set of eyes. Originally posted by creampuff Kierra, you have not stated the method you did the B&W conversion. Even in Photoshop, there are so many ways to carry out B&W conversions, not including the many plug-ins available. Did you used the B&W adjustment tool, by far the easiest method within CS3/CS4? Basically CS3's targeted adjustment tool (same as Lightroom) allows for adjustment of how each colour data is converted to B&W, which is far more precise than the traditional methods like the channel mixer method. Banding and subtle gradations come out smoother. When I convert in CS3, I create a new adjustment layer for B&W, using CS3's B&W conversion tool. Is this the same as the targeted adjustment tool? (Forgive my ignorance... ) Originally posted by janosh If you do a lot of this type of work, or portraits, or weddings, you'll want Lightroom's unique "Clarity" adjustment. Reducing Clarity a little, perhaps with local contrast tweaking (maybe eyes/hair/lips) easily emulates Zeiss Softar filtration, which was an almost-always tool in portraiture, especially with 120 ...Softar was essential to virtually every Hasselblad fashion photo and many rock&roll promos from that era, not to mention the formal portraits. As well, Lightroom does B&W conversions wonderfully well in various ways, all easier than Photoshop's. Lightroom's Clarity adjustment will eliminate the inevitable infant skin glitches (obvious even on our monitors) without noticable softening if you use it carefully. I don't really do a lot of this...just for friends and friends of friends. I haven't bought lightroom yet, mostly b/c of limited funds and the fact that I don't really 'need' it... though I keep getting told again and again that I should. The skin tones are really what tends to cause the problem I think, as any splotchiness or mottled areas seem to be exaggerated in the conversion, true. Originally posted by FHPhotographer I've used just about every technique in CS3 and CS4, and nothing touches *Nik Silver Efex Pro* as a plug-in for PS. It's expensive, but it has a trial download and it's really worth taking a look. Of particular use is being able to change brightness/contrast/structure area by area using the Control Points, then pick a filter and/or film type to get exactly the tonal gradations you want. I've found the quick n' dirty method is to import, copy the layer and run the auto tone, contrast and color, backing off each in opacity as needed; then run a sharpening, then the Silver Efex because it allows you to introduce grain and you don't want to be sharpening the grain. Good luck, Brian Thanks. I see several have suggested it. I will take a look at it. Originally posted by k100d keitha from our forum had some good stuff on her thought process A Scenic World Blog Archive Why Do You Do the Things You Do? I have read the article that Keitha did--while it is excellent, I don't speak Lightroom yet, so it didn't make much sense to me....again, maybe I just need to give in and spend the money for LR! Originally posted by MPrince You might find this site helpful: Black and White Digital Photography Thanks for the link. I will spend some time trying to glean some wisdom from the site--it looks pretty expansive...I'm sure I'll use up plenty of time perusing it! Thanks again to all who chimed in. I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions.

11-09-2009, 09:21 PM	#15
bbluesman Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,615	Happy Silver EFX user here-extra film look/grain from NIK Color EFX Film Effects