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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-23-2018, 10:29 PM
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One of the first things I did, along with cleaning the terminals in the camera. No help, and the issue turned out to be about cell voltage; check the later posts, especially 36-45. Note that if dirty terminals had been the cause it almost certainly would have shown up with lower voltage cells instead of higher voltage ones, exactly the opposite of what happened.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-23-2018, 12:18 AM
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I was aware that the "standard" voltage for *some* lithium cells is a bit over 3V (coin cells, button cells, etc) and that the manufacturers have produced lithium cells at a bit over half that, but as an EE, rather than a battery chemist, I had no knowledge of *how* it's done or what the differences might be. I did some research this evening, and found a Wiki article (of course!) which describes the various types (23 different ones, actually, from 1.4V to 3.8V) of lithium cells, including their chemistry and nominal voltage. Apparently there are several different types of nominally 1.5V cells, of which the one used by Energizer is Li-FeS2; the article is here:
Lithium battery - Wikipedia.
While I realize the best way to address the problem is as you described, as long as Cr-V3's work without any issues, and lithium AA cells work as I noted previously, I'm content to work with it as-is. Again, thanks to everyone for all the help and suggestions.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-21-2018, 10:47 PM
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Thanks! After I posted I went online and found it. I realize that I can't use it to become a qualified service tech, just as the car and appliance service manuals I have don't allow me to pretend to be a qualified auto mechanic or refrigerator/oven/etc service tech, but as you say it can provide me with enough info to disassemble and reassemble it if needed, at least partially, without making mistakes due to ignorance regarding how the parts fit together, and in what order. If you saw and remember the "disarming the CIA bomb" scene from MASH you'll know the sort of problems I'lm trying to avoid ("But first, cut the *red* wire"). ;-)
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-20-2018, 09:56 AM
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As an EE, it just seems logical, and doesn't involve any "waking-up" that I've never seen in *any* batteries, unless you count lead-acid car batteries that are sold with the acid "to be added". And I wouldn't want to try to pass myself off as a camera expert, but thanks. ;-)
---------- Post added 10-20-18 at 09:59 AM ----------
Glad to be of some help! Since I retired I hardly ever get to use *any* of my electronics knowledge, so this was, in some ways, enjoyable.
---------- Post added 10-20-18 at 10:03 AM ----------
Thanks; those numbers sound reasonable for what I know of battery internal resistance, although voltage under load can't be directly converted to open-circuit voltage, and I haven't built a test jig for under-load testing (and probably won't, now that I have a "fix"). Just curious: whwer did you find a service manual?
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-19-2018, 10:04 PM
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Start-up voltage seems to be exactly the issue. I received the Cr-V3's I ordered today and installed them. The camera powered-up just fine.I checked the open-circuit voltage,and they measured 3.01 and 3.03 volts. That gave me an idea, and I tried Dartmoor Dave's "wake-up" process. I ran all the non-working Energizer lithiums I had (5 sets of 4 each) through Dave's process by installing them in a Sigma flash and running each set through 3 charge/flash cycles. The OC voltage of all 20 cells was around 1.85V prior to the process. Afterward, each set worked fine in the camera, where none of them had before. The OC voltage after the process ran from 1.68V to 1.71V for all the cells. I think this indicates that the *ist-DS (at least mine) is voltage-sensitive, and won't power-up if the total is 7V or more (1.75V/cell). I suspect that Dave's camera has the same issue, and his process only reduces the voltage to something the camera is happy with. As for CeeCee's reference in post 30, I can't explain why new, unused cells with up to 9 years of remaining shelf life should show waht the reference calls "completely discharged" or why such a "dead" cell works fine and shows full charge in the camera. I can only hope that the cells don;t "recover" to greater than 1.75V each... Anyway, it looks like my problem is explained, if not actually "solved", and I have a usable work-around with the Cr-V3's or "tested" AA's. Thanks to all who offered help!
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-19-2018, 07:23 AM
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That's the difference; I only used them maybe 2-3 times a month, and got much better service from either alkalines or lithiums. If I'd been using them daily, for hours, rechargeables woud have been the obvious choice.
---------- Post added 10-19-18 at 07:28 AM ----------
While I never had to do any "wake-up" operation before (and I can't imagine why it would be needed), I'll give it a try, first in a high-intensity flashlight and, if that doesn't work, in a flash. The advantage to the test circuit is that I can monitor/measure the current draw, which can't be done in a flash.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 10:49 PM
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Thanks for the ref. That's what it says on page 3, which makes it even more of a mystery that the only batteries I have which *don't* show a flashing "depleted" icon in my camera are the used ones, which read around 1.72V open-circuit (and the alkalines, at around 1.55V); the new ones which read around 1.85V OC show "depleted". Of course, that was my original question...
Bottom line, I intend to try the Cr-V3s, which are the Pentax "recommended" type, when they come in. If they don't work, I'll probably kludge up a test circuit to check all of the AA lithiums under load, per Fig 11 on page 11. And at the last, if it still remains a mystery, I might bite the bullet and try Enerloops, since everyone seems to think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread...
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 10:58 PM ----------
That's interesting. I used AA lithiums from my first use back in '05 or '06, and I've gotten about 800-1000 shots per set before the icon dropped below "full". I hardly ever use the internal flash, which probably makes a significant difference. I only got this battery problem after I didn't use the camera for about 2 years (health problems), and when I turned it on there was nothing, not even the flashing "battery depleted" icon. The resulting fire drill is described in my first post.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 08:01 PM
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Thanks! I don't have anything but batteries to use as a check, but unless *all* the unused Energizer Ultimates I have are defective, that seems to say that there's a problem in the camera.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 04:44 PM
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OK; thanks. I have a pair on order, and I'll check them out when they arrive.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 02:29 PM
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That seems to be the general consensus. When I was using rechargeable NiMH's about 15 years ago they were junk, and self-discharged in a couple of weeks, a month at most. Apparently the new ones are *way* better.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 12:28 PM
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I may wind up trying them, but I'll wait until I've tried the Cr-V3's I have on order. Based on what I've read over the past couple of days, it does seem that NiMH cells have been improved quite a bit since the ones I found to be essentially useless about 15 years ago.
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 12:31 PM ----------
Well *that's* a new one, unless the flash use dropped the voltage enough that it was within the (apparent) acceptable range for the firmware, like the partially-depleted lithiums and the new alkalines that work in my camera. I'll give it a try; thanks.
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Forum: Welcomes and Introductions
10-18-2018, 09:43 AM
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Thanks to all! I've already gotten some good responses about my problem; hopefully something will work.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-18-2018, 09:10 AM
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Thanks for the follow-up. It could be that the firmware does some sort of start-up test, but that doesn't explain why only batteries with a lower open-circuit voltage (alkalines and partially-discharged lithiums) work unless there's a fault in the hardware. And the firmware is up to date - v.2.02. I'm going to wait and see how the Cr-V3s work before I make any decisions; if they work I'll call it good-to-go.
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 09:14 AM ----------
Thanks. That was my suspicion (aging components, probably with not enough margin even when new), but I'm glad to see it confirmed. I'll see how the Cr-V3s do, and go from there.
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 09:21 AM ----------
Nope, read my first post. They're all batteries I had on-hand (all Energizer Ultimates), and only a set which had been used a while and had started down the discharge curve would allow the camera to turn on. All the batteries are good, as I noted; it's not a "bad battery" issue. So I buy another identical camera with a 6-month warranty, and in 7 months I have the same issue (since it's apparently a DS "thing"; ref post 13)? Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me...
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 09:28 AM ----------
KEH currently has two, one for $29 ("As-is") and one for $84 ("Ex+). If I thought the problem was unique to my camera, I might consider a replacement (or an upgrade), but since a couple of responses have indicated similar issues I'd probably jus be wasting my money.
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 09:37 AM ----------
If you're talking about the AC adapter that plugs into the port inside the left door, that wouldn't be very handy for walking around. Or do you know of a belt-type external battery pack that will work?
---------- Post added 10-18-18 at 09:41 AM ----------
I think it's actually a capacitor, not an internal rechargeable battery (but I could be mistaken). Anyway, it's working now, so I'll see how it does with a different set of new batteries in a few days, although I can't imagine it taking more than a few seconds to to put a charge on a capacitor, or a couple of hours to charge an internal battery.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-17-2018, 05:28 PM
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Yeah, I'm aware of the issues you note. I'm sure my Ft-QL, with its sole electrics being a lightmeter, will be usable long after even the ME-F has gone to that "big camera bag in the sky", just as my Hi-Matic G and Polaroid Land camera (neither of which I still use) will. But I still expect a couple of decades out of the "latest and greatest" (at the time); FWIW, I still use a flipphone bacause it works just fine *as* a phone, and I don't need the features of the current smartphones. And again FWIW, the *ist-DS works fine as long as it recognizes that the batteries are there.
---------- Post added 10-17-18 at 05:31 PM ----------
Thanks for the ref; I'll check it out. For now, as long as it recognizes that the batteries are there it works fine, and I get milti-thousand shots with a single set, so I'll cross my fingers, and hope the Cr-V3's fix the problem...
---------- Post added 10-17-18 at 05:34 PM ----------
OK; thanks. I suspect there *is* OV protection built-in, which, if it's an "aging" issue, may be the cause of the problem I'm seeing.
---------- Post added 10-17-18 at 05:37 PM ----------
Coiuld be, but I know of no way to test it other than what I've seen. If necessary (if the Cr-3v's don't work) I'll use alkalines, even though the manual calls them "emergency only" and states they may reduce some functionality.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-17-2018, 03:31 PM
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I just seemed strange to me (and I'm a retired EE) that higher-voltage batteries caused the "depleted" icon; maybe it should be called a "bad battery" icon instead... I'm hoping that the Cr-V3's will work from the get-go, so that I don't have to "select" batteries that have started down; lithiums have a *very* flat discharge curve.
I have a Canon Ft-QL I got in 1967, and it still works, as does the Pentax ME-F I got sometime in the early '80s (although they've both been "in retirement" since around '08, when film got a bit hard to find and DSLR resolution improved to be almost as good as film), so I *expect* cameras to work for a while.
---------- Post added 10-17-18 at 03:35 PM ----------
The batteries that wouldn't work were *new* non-rechargeable lithium AAs, and the only set that worked had a lower voltage than the new ones, as I stated. That was the issue, that partially discharged batteries, or alkalines with their lower voltage, worked, and brand-new lithiums didn't, again as I stated.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-17-2018, 03:16 PM
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Doubtful, since a set of 4 lithium Energizer Ultimate AA's costs about $6 and lasts me about a year. Or more.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
10-17-2018, 02:04 PM
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I'm hoping that if someone else has had a similar issue, they've managed to resolve it. The issue: I have a Pentax *ist-Ds I've used for about 12 years, and I've always used AA lithiums with no issues. I went to use it a few days ago, and it wouldn't power up - not even the blinking "battery depleted" symbol. I installed *new* (exp. 2027) AA lithiums, and got the blinking symbol. I tried four sets of AA lithiums and found *one* set that worked. I also tried a set of AA alkalines, which *also* worked. (Note: I don't have, and don't want, any NiMH rechargeables; my previous experience with them was not very good, even the top-of-the-line ones were just too much of a hassle, and had invariably self-discharged just when I wanted to use them. And that was using a "best quality" conditioning charger from Maha. NiMH just has too short a "charged" life to be acceptable when I only use the camera every couple of months. *And* one exploded - loud "BANG!"; crap all over the walls - in the charger.)
Anyway, I did some measurements, and found that the set of AA lithiums which worked were down to around 1.70-1.72 volts (unloaded); the AA alkalines were the usual 1.55V. All the AA lithiums which *didn't* work (which were all "new, unused" with expiration dates from 2022-2027) measured 1.84-1.86V (unloaded), the usual open-circuit voltage for new lithiums.
So here's the question: Has anyone experienced a problem with either the *ist-DS or another Pentax DSLR in which a too-*high* battery voltage caused the camera to show "depleted" and refuse to power-up? If so, did you find a solution? If not, I'll continue to use the batteries which work (and I have a pair of Duracell Ultra Cr-V3 lithiums on order, which I'll try when they arrive next week).
Thanks for any help!
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Forum: Welcomes and Introductions
10-17-2018, 01:31 PM
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Hi to everyone. I'm just a casual photographer. I found this forum while researching a problem with my ist-DS, and I'm hoping that if someone here has had a similar problem they've found a solution. I'll post a separate thread detailing the problem since it doesn't belong in the "welcome" area.
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