Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
5 Days Ago
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I think it's clear that Pentax isn't aiming at buyers who compare specifications and choose the one that beats all the others in the game of "Camera Top Trumps". Instead, Pentax is aiming at photographers who want an optical viewfinder DSLR. And when mirrorless fans like Chris Gampat start talking about the benefits of using a DSLR, I think Pentax has made the right move. https://www.thephoblographer.com/2024/04/10/dslr-camera-method-better-photos/
I think Ricoh sees Pentax as a prestige brand that adds sparkle to the Ricoh image in the all-important Japanese market. Thereby helping cash flow all across the corporation.
I don't think Pentax is trying to gain a strategic edge in the camera market, at least not in the sense that you're using the term. It's trying to find a niche in which it can survive. Ricoh doesn't expect Pentax to compete against Canon and the others; it only expects it to cover its costs and make some sort of a profit.
I think the Pentax management has been handed over to people who think that a half frame film camera is a good idea. People who are willing to think outrageously in order to find a survival niche within a shrinking ecosystem. People who are thinking on a level way above almost all the comments in this thread. And unfortunately, Biz, you're thinking about all of this from the perspective of a regional sales manager.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
02-24-2024, 09:23 PM
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So as I mentioned, I attended the GR Live event on Friday. I was hoping to get some inspiration, because despite loving the GR III, I have not been using it a lot recently. I wanted to see what kind of work more experienced photographers and what I should aspire to myself.
The event was very well attended. I think there must have been at least 200 people there. There were a few non-Japanese like me, but I assume they are residents who speak Japanese. There was quite a nice cross-section of ages and more women that at most typical photography events. They have done this kind of event before, but this specific “Live” event was last done a couple of years ago.
The program consisted of some music, presentations from photographers and the amateur “fan” presentations. I won’t go into the fan presentations, but they were actually quite well done. Some of them were really humorous in the way they presented. Most of these fans were chosen after attending one of the GR Meet events around the country.
The pro photographers were as follows. They each spoke for about 10 minutes. I personally liked Suzuki-san’s, Ohwada-san’s and Adachi-san’s best. Kyosuke Hamao ?GRist?Vol.63 Kyosuke Hamao | GR official | RICOH official community site
A former actor who quit to pursue design as a career. Tatsuo Suzuki tatsuosuzuki – VoidTokyo
A street photographer, who shares some ground with Daido Moriyama, but his work contains more of an element of portraiture. Ryo Ohwada ? ???
Seems to have a lot of snap photography in his portfolio, but this time he was showing mainly snow landscapes taken with the GR IIIx. Robert Adachi Robert Adachi Official Website
Seems to do abstract, still life, cityscapes and landscapes. He is also a musician and was the MC and DJ for the event. Yusuke Okawa YUSUKE OKAWA - Portfolio
A Youtuber who uses a GR III for stills. Takahiko Nakafuji TAKEHIKO NAKAFUJI | photographer
A seasoned street photographer. This time he was presenting images of a rock band which seems to be where his career started.
After that there was a discussion between photographer Satoru Watanabe and two other people who work related to the animation house Studio Ghibli. One of them worked with the famous anime director Hayao Miyazaki on his latest film “The Boy and the Heron”. He had used the GR to take candid shots of Miyazaki-san at work during production, some of which he showed.
In addition to this, at various points, there were comments from Ricoh staff. It does seem that the cameras are genuinely very popular at the moment, and the main challenge is just meeting demand. They were quite clear that no new products would be release at the event.
One interesting part was the global marketing guy who showed the scale of events being done outside Japan. In particular, they have tons of events in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea. They also showed photos of well-attended events in the US and Europe.
It seems that the way they decide where to hold events based on the number of GR photos tagged with the specified city hashtag. That would be (for example) #shootGR_Helsinki . So if you are interested in having Ricoh events in your city, that is a way to register your interest in a way Ricoh will notice.
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Forum: Troubleshooting and Beginner Help
12-14-2023, 07:43 PM
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Good morning all, yes, we're back with the new monthly format, and it's been a big week. I seem to always get the same eccentric Uber driver in my area, he has all these schemes he dreams up.
He told me, "I wanna start a flight company exclusively for bald people. I'm calling it "Receding Airlines!"
But it wasn't all bad. I was delighted when the kind people at Inland Revenue wrote to me recently, telling me that my tax return was 'outstanding'.
Particularly since I can't even remember sending it in.
This week I want to talk about the challenge of shooting through glass at say a museum exhibit or a wild animal in a zoo, which generate reflections.
For the pic below with my K-1 and Tamron 28-75mm f2.8, I wanted the scene of the Melbourne CBD as evening set in without glare from the well lit bar area behind me. The windows were naturally full of people's reflections.
The idea was to get as close as possible, with the lens hood against the glass, perpendicular, not angled, and a tea towel I had packed draped around it to further seal the light from behind. There is also a polarizing filter on the Tamron, that was rotated until the contrast and colours were at their maximum. The tea towel (you can use a spare T shirt on holiday) can be used to wipe the window in front of the lens first.
The picture is an HDR from three bracketed exposures. You can see there is still, for example, an orange vertical band in the upper right, and a glare area in the upper left corner, so to get more serious in the future I have since bought a 'Lenskirt' flexible hood that will fit most of my lenses, and let me back off, because the hood spreads out and attaches to the glass itself.
To finish with, there's the story of the man seeing his regular medical practitioner.
Guy : Doctor, my girlfriend is pregnant but we always use protection and the rubber never broke. How is it possible?
Doctor : Let me tell you a story: "There was once a hunter who always carried a gun wherever he went. One day he took his umbrella instead of his gun and went out. A lion suddenly jumped in front of him. In order to scare the lion, the hunter used the umbrella like a gun, and shot the lion, then it died!"
Guy : That's crap! Someone else must've shot the lion.
Doctor : Good! You understood the story. Next patient please.
Find the rest of the series here: Clackers' Beginners Tips (Collected) - PentaxForums.com |
Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
12-08-2023, 10:20 PM
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I can see what you mean from a full frame point of view, and agree to some extent. I know you probably don't think most of them count, but of the 12 lenses Pentax has released since 2019, 11 cover full frame and only one is APS-C specific. So even if Pentax has limited resources, it's hard to say that APS-C is getting to much.
There is one lens I think they should make for APS-C, which is a DA* 25/1.4 (or maybe 1.8). They have some lenses either side but nothing really fast. If they made it big enough to cover full frame, I would probably not be interested.
I think they made some mistakes in the lenses they chose to prioritize for full frame. They were persuaded that users wanted fast primes, and came out with the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4, but I don't think they have sold very well. When you look at the APS-C sales, it's the mid-range zooms that sell well, so I would expect the same to be true of FF. The #1 lens I think they should make is a variable aperture DFA 70-300, closely followed by a DFA 24-90/4, then maybe something like a slowish DFA 17-35. These are lenses that could earn their development costs back quicker than expensive primes.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
12-03-2023, 08:02 PM
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Hello everyone, I'm a photographer based in Taiwan.
I'm thrilled to share with you the events that took place here over the past two days.
Please bear with me as my English proficiency may not be sufficient for precise descriptions.
I appreciate your understanding on this matter.
Firstly, let's talk about the activities on the first day.
The primary focus of the first day was a gathering of PENTAX fans in Taiwan.
The nature of the event leaned more towards an internal assembly of core members.
The organizer was the local agent in Taiwan, which has a long-standing collaborative history with PENTAX in Japan.
Since the era of ASAHI Optical, they have been actively involved in managing the sales and representation.
The main content of the first day's event revolved around sharing information about the PENTAX film project.
There were interactive Q&A sessions with responses from Mr. TKO and Mr. Aki from PENTAX,
including insights shared by the CEO of the Taiwan agency.
Unfortunately, I'm currently unable to share details beyond a certain scope on the internet. I hope you understand.
Regarding the user-submitted questions,
Taiwanese users raised several inquiries, including the following:
1. About K-1 III
2. About progress update on film cameras
3. About sales-related questions about film cameras
4. About DFA* wide-angle fast lenses / 2nd generation DA 50-135
5. About the Q series system
6. About the 645 system
7. About possibility of a mirrorless system
8. In the film project, questions about developing and film-related matters
Regarding the eight questions mentioned above, please understand that I cannot reveal too much information.
The responses are as follows:
1.To achieve a higher level of precision, more time than initially anticipated has been invested.
The procurement of digital camera components has become considerably more challenging than before.
However, please be assured that it is currently in progress. Kindly be patient and await further updates.
2. Progress is going smoothly.
3. Details cannot be disclosed at this time.
4. The primary goal at the moment is to increase business growth and expand into new customer segments.
Efforts toward these objectives will be made in the future.
5. In Japan, there have been users expressing interest in restarting the Q series.
However, the Q series has certain limitations in specifications, and feasibility studies on this matter will be conducted.
6. This project is currently in a later stage of the sequence and cannot be undertaken immediately.
7.The difficulty level is very high.
8. Regarding the production volume and pricing of film, we hope to increase partnerships through the film project.
The aim is to stimulate the film photography market and bring about positive changes.
The same applies to the development process.
The content of the second-day event was similar to the first day,
with the main difference being that the first session was for inviting PENTAX FANS,
while the second session was for inviting film enthusiasts. Additionally,
the second session showcased a small portion of the developmental prototype and offered hands-on experience with manual film cameras.
Regarding the details about the prototype,
I cannot disclose too much, but its size is not large. I believe its dimensions may fall somewhere between the GR and ESPIO 70.
The above provides an overview of the event content. If this article seems to lack substantial information,
I apologize, and thank you for reading.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
08-23-2023, 12:04 AM
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I had an opportunity to visit Pentax Clubhouse on Aug/21. Last time I went there (about a year ago) it was still new and my visit was limited to 30 minutes. This time there was no such limitation, and I only saw two other customers during my ~1hour visit, which meant that I had more time to chat with the staffs there.
I first asked for cleaning and checking my K-3III, which was supposed to be JPY 3300 (there was a nice report by @ongaku99: Pentax Club House to open in Yotsuya, Tokyo). Even though I knew my K-3III sensor was in a good shape, I just wanted to experience what the service was like. To my surprise, the service staff looked at the sensor using a loupe and immediately said "Mr. kwb, the sensor looks pretty good, not many dusts, certainly no large ones. I'll still check things, but I won't charge you unless I clean the sensor. It will take about an hour." What? He'll work for an hour anyway, right? I won't complain if I'm charged JPY 3300 just for his time!
While waiting for the checkup, I saw a K-3III Monochrome (probably Matte Gray version) with 40mm Ltd on the display counter. I asked one of the staffs behind the counter if I can try it out, and he told me that I can put my SD card in the camera to keep the data. Cool, I thought, but the next thing he said was even cooler. "There aren't many subjects here, please feel free to go outside if you'd like." Maybe that's because he knew that my camera was still in the shop and they have my order form (for the cleanup work) with my name, cellphone number and address, but I was still struck by the trust they had on their customers. I left my backpack there (nobody told me to do so but I felt as if that was a fair "exchange") and went outside with K-3III monochrome. I didn't feel comfortable enough to go too far from the Clubhouse, so I stayed within ~100 meters (~110 yards) radius for maybe 10 minutes or so, but that was enough to have a lot of fun.
After coming back in, I continued to talk with the person who let me handle K-3III Monochrome. (Below is based on my memory, any errors are on me.)
Me: K-1 successor?
Clubhouse staff (CS): Working on it, but no news. Film compact might come first.
Me: Is there going to be the successor of DA* 60-250?
CS: Haven't heard of a plan for that, at the moment we're pointing customers to D-FA 70-210 or D-FA* 70-200.
Me: Is it really true that the development of DSLR and lens are NOT affected by the Film Project?
CS: It's true, film project is not delaying development of digital. They're different beasts and not much overlap.
(I actually had much longer conversation about the film VS DSLR, but I'll just skip it here except that I felt as if the K-1 successor is NOT something that could be brought to the market earlier by throwing person-power at it. That means, at least to me, that we won't see the next K-1 for some time, certainly not this year, but I could be wrong.)
There was one thing that was bugging me for some time, that is, the youtube video titled "What Pentax Values Most in the Future Cameras" was made private at some point. That video was released at the same time as the Pentax brand statement (and the Five Principles of Pentax). You might remember a thread about that (What Pentax Values Most in Future Cameras). If you click the link to the video, you'll see "video is private" error message. Youtu.be |
src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-tOfTmF7ahs?controls=1" allowfullscreen> |
Is that because Ricoh's direction is not well aligned with the video any more, or something else that is somehow a sure sign of an imminent Doom? :) I didn't say that to him but I simply asked why the video was pulled. Another (third) staff was pulled into conversation and apparently this was a surprise for both of them.
After a while, one of them said "oh, it could be the model release issue". Model what? He asked me if I remember that the video featured a white male model posing with a camera in his hands. OK, I did remember that. He told me that there was a poster featuring the same model, and that poster had to be pulled because the contract for the model was only for a limited time and RI didn't extend the contract. He said there could have been the same issue for the video, too, and Ricoh could have chosen not to extend the contract as the video has served its purpose well to deliver the message to the intended audience. Though I've never imagined that the model contract could expire in just 3 years, it sounded convincing to me, and I was happy to know that this was not a bad omen at all.
At this point the first (service) staff came back, saying that my camera was good. He cleaned the camera here and there, removed small dusts from the sensor (but he didn't charge me, so I guess he just blew them off using blower?). He also checked focus of the camera with my DA* 16-50 PLM (which was good) and updated the firmware from 2.00 to 2.01. That's a lot of work for no money charged! I was a happy customer.
I bought two D-LI109 batteries for my KP (I also wanted to buy Q batteries but they don't have any in stock), thanked them all, and left the Clubhouse. That was a great experience.
Attached are some of the pictures I shot with K-3III Monochrome. The first one is the wall of the Clubhouse displaying monochrome prints shot with K-3III Monochrome. The second and the third are where they were demolishing a small building, the way rubble and things are neatly contained and the way they're working in a tight space looked very Tokyo-like to me.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
07-12-2023, 04:18 PM
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I mentioned most of this in other threads before, but there are various reasons why I never thought monochrome GR would happen.
Decision-making - GR and Pentax are different divisions in Ricoh Imaging. Just because Pentax was eager to make a monochrome camera, it doesn’t mean that Ricoh are.
Supply troubles - Ricoh struggles to keep the GR in stock because they can’t build enough. Selling them is not the problem. Given this, introducing a new model doesn’t make sense.
Marketing message - Ricoh has already heavily marketed the existing GR cameras as capable B&W cameras. They have some very good B&W presets. To come out with monochrome camera now would seem inconsistent with how they have sold the camera so far.
Use cases - It’s a generalization but typical uses of the the GR are not so demanding on resolution. The K-3 III is a more versatile camera, so you can imagine more realistic scenarios where the resolution would be valued.
Prohibitive cost - The premium of the the K-3 III Monochrome is about $500 on average. If you add that kind of cost to a GR, it starts to creep up to full frame mirrorless territory.
Technical difficulty - switching the sensor on a DSLR is a relatively simple matter, because the architecture is designed to allow film to be changed, and other critical sensors are independent of that. In the case of the GR (and other mirrorless cameras) it has implications for the efficiency of the AF system. Maybe not a critical issue for the GR, which was never considered an AF speed demon in the first place, but still more work to do to make sure the AF is acceptable.
Other priorities - We don’t know what Ricoh is working on with their small team. They could be working on the IV generation, they could be working on a new kind of camera entirely.
So Tanaka’s comments seem quite logical to me. On the other hand, the K-3 III seems to be doing well, and Pentax has the chance to repeat this trick at least twice. They could do a monochrome K-1 and they could do a cheaper APS-C further down the line.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
07-09-2023, 05:17 AM
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I went to the exhibition earlier today and it was quite interesting. TKO (Suzuki-San) was there and I had a fairly long talk with him about film cameras in general and the prototype.
Obviously he’s a professional and a representative of his company, so he’s not going to start randomly revealing secret stuff. I didn’t get a glimpse of the whole camera or anything like that. It stayed partially revealed in its box under glass.
What he did say was that the film winding mechanism is functional and a result of a lot of careful tuning of the way it should feel, done with the help of retired Pentax engineers. Certainly the mechanism has a lot of metal in it. I’m not sure if it’s all metal, but TKO said it has a lot of metal parts. The clear case is not the final product but a 3D printed prototype. So I don’t think it’ll much should be read into the final finish of the product based on the prototype case.
The lens and focusing mechanism are still under development so we have to wait longer to find out about that. I think it’s fair to say this will be a mostly mechanical camera, without a lot of electronics.
The photos were quite nice. They are shots of the coast by a young photographer from Kagawa prefecture. Apparently the photographer will be in town to attend the exhibition next weekend, in case any Tokyo residents want to meet her.
Regarding film itself, he talked enthusiastically about Ilford’s new Ilfocolor film. It’s cool that a new color film is coming into the market. Ilford is a collaborator in the exhibition.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
07-03-2023, 05:13 PM
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All, I thought long and hard whether I should NOT post this (more about that later) but I decided that this is a useful and good news that most of you deserve to know, so let's get to the numbers first.
On Jun/26/2023, RI posted FY2022-23 balance sheet to 官報 or the Official Japan Gazette, a newspaper published by the National Printing Bureau to notify citizens all sorts of legal matters. This is not a new development or anything, it's been going on from the start of Ricoh-Pentax merger. Anyway, back to FY 2022-23. Total assets: ~7.46B JPY as of March 2023 (Current Assets ~5.4B, Fixed ~2.06B, yes it's a small company today). That's ~1.7 billion JPY increase from the previous FY. Still smaller than pre-COVID March 2020 (~11B) but already larger than March 2021 (~5.85B) and March 2022. Liabilities total: ~7.07B (Current ~6.56B, Fixed ~0.51B). Shareholders' equity: ~0.39B. Net profit: ~1.14 billion JPY (about 7.9 million USD) after three consecutive FYs of net loss.
I'll add that shareholders' equity bounced back into positive due to 1.14B profit after two consecutive FYs of negative (yes I've been REALLY concerned for two years).
RI has done countless things in the past while NOT making functional updates to DSLR nor GR for FY20222-23. At least some of these things worked, otherwise they couldn't have pulled this off. Things don't look rosy or anything, but this is the first good quantitative financial news about RI after so many years. They're in the process of morphing into something that is different from their pre-COVID selves, and in that process they're coming back financially, it seems to me. I don't know if this continues or not. We'll see.
OK, now that an important part is out, here's how I obtained this information (you can too) and why I haven't posted anything before. If you're not interested, just skip it as this will be long.
Despite popular belief/rumor in PF, RI would post its balance sheet to Official Japan Gazette in late June or very early July each year (they're legally bound to post it somewhere). Free online version of the Gazette is the most inconvenient source for me as they only keep it online for 90 days, you get each page as one separate pdf, each pdf is just a big image and therefore not searchable at all using letters (e.g. "リコーイメージング" or "Ricoh Imaging"), but I had/have to use that as there's no alternatives. If you live in Japan you can pay 2200 Yens per month for the access to search in the past issues (you'll send your application to one of their 48 branches) or go to large public libraries. Either way, it's mostly out of reach for me except when I go back to Japan. There are third parties who somehow build their own database off of the Gazette and publish for free, I don't know about the legality of that. Information on the Gazette is considered public domain but the Printing Bureau claims copyright to some of the digital contents, so e.g. using a screenshot beyond the personal purpose might be problematic. In addition, if you subscribe to the Gazette's search service you'll consent to the TOS that explicitly prohibits you from using the data and graphics beyond the personal use. Third parties might be buying paper copies to scan in and use OCR to automate the information extraction, which I guess is legal.
That's why I made it a habit to check the free online version of the Gazette everyday in late June. I'll save your time to do what I did, here's the page for RI's FY2022-23 data (top left is RI, no easy auto-translation because it's just a big image and no real character information): Jun/26/2023 issue, "Extras" section, page 80.
Anyway, I promised myself that I won't post anything about RI's balance sheets unless there is an obviously good news. It would be vulgar and irresponsible of me if I talk about "bad" finances of a company when in reality I have zero understanding of how to read nuances of balance sheet of any company, let alone a 100% subsidiary of a bigger corporation. And anyway how RI is doing in general could be guesstimated from the investor relation events of Ricoh Co. Ltd. (the mothership), so writing "RI itself made a loss" wouldn't have helped anybody except haters and masochists :lol:. And there hasn't been any "obviously good" year before. So I just sat on the knowledge.
This past FY was different. Making a net profit is always good. Total assets springing back toward pre-COVID level (not quite, but they're already bigger than Mar/2021) is great. Shareholders' equity getting back to positive is huge (at least for me). Should I post it? I mean, it seems to pass my own "obviously good" criterion. Will this somehow make a neutral person to stop buying Pentax products? Like, I don't know, maybe the person is shocked that RI is so small and avoid it based on that? Not impossible, but I decided that I shouldn't be worrying about each and every corner case. If you're searching for negative materials in this news, this is not the only source for you, and this is not the worst one either. In other words, you're not affected by this news.
OTOH this will give everybody a glimpse that RI's actions are maybe, sort of, actually working. There's no denying that whatever they did made money for them. So, for those of you who can see positive things as positive, you deserve to hear this news, thus this post.
BTW I'm still sticking to "no post unless obviously good" thing concerning this subject. If you go for third parties (to find out the past data), that's your choice not mine, please don't post about that in this thread. Thanks for reading!
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
05-20-2023, 11:02 AM
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The highlighted text in the article is highly misleading. There's nothing in the Japanese text that explicitly states that Ricoh themselves will become a film supplier and developer. The English version seems to be written by the same person as the Japanese version, but this still seems like mistranslation to me. Maybe the writer's intent is that the subject, "we", refers to the society in general or something.
My translation: Though this project is about developing a film camera, we believe that film supply and development are as critical as cameras to foster an environment where people can use film cameras with peace of mind, so we are trying to find how we can help that.
Original text: 我々の今回のプロジェクトは、フィルムカメラを作ります、という話ではあるのですが、本体を作るだけではなくて、フィルムの供給と現像、この3つが合わさって初めてみなさんが安心してフィルムカメラを使える環境になると思っているので、そこもどうにかならないかなと取り組んでいるところです。
If you want something that keeps the flow/order of the words spoken for easy side by side comparison with the Japanese text, my rough 1-to-1 translation would be like this: This project, though it's about developing a film camera, not just camera making, but film supply and development, we believe we need all of these three things combined for an environment where people can use film cameras with peace of mind, so we are working, wishing to improve that aspect. |
Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
04-07-2023, 05:02 AM
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"Our goal was to outlive DPR. With this accomplished, there's no reason to continue. Good bye." :lol:
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
02-25-2023, 09:18 AM
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I had the chance to visit the Pentax Clubhouse this week. First, a huge thanks to forum member JPT for the background, directions and times that they are open!
The highlights were:
--Trying a bunch of new lenses
--Picking up some clubhouse branded items
--Meeting and having a conversation with TKO!!
I had asked several of the clubhouse staff if there was any news on the film camera development. Initially the questions were met with "nothing new to say".
So, I went about trying several new lenses. The team at the clubhouse were very patient, and allowed me to take each of the lenses outside to see how they performed.
After doing that I was rather heads down looking through the bins of goodies for sale, when...
...to my utter and complete shock, TKO came out and was introduced to me!
I told him how excited I was about the idea of the film camera and asked him what if anything more he could please tell me about where they are at.
He basically reiterated what is in the video. But, he was very clear that this is not a "for sure" thing and that he and his team are very much still working on the ideas. He re-stated that a compact camera would be first, and that others (if it happens) would follow later.
I explained my long involvement with the Pentax brand expressing my support for having a new film camera. I asked that they please consider ensuring the camera has full manual capability, the rugged Pentax build (that has allowed the film era cameras to still be working) and please please please make sure it is K-mount. The last one drew a ton of laughs from him and the clubhouse team.
Also had the chance to tell him how I had heard about the video in the first place and showed him the Pentax Forums landing page on my phone. He said he'd heard of Pentax Forums, but it was his first time looking at it.
What's extraordinarily cool is that he's clearly as passionate about photography and this project in person as he appears in the video.
It was one heck of a visit to the Pentax Clubhouse!
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
02-10-2023, 06:17 PM
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At the end of 2022, there was a article in the Japanese magazine Cameraman #7 (2022-2023, p.59-63) with a lengthy panel discussion on Ricoh Imaging. Representing Ricoh was Hiraku Kawauchi, in charge of marketing. Some other photographers and journalists were in the discussion, which covered a lot of topics.
In terms of timing, this magazine came out after the KF had been released, but the discussion had taken place before that. Therefore, there was no specific mention of the KF, the K-3 III monochrome or the Film Project.
This is not a paragraph by paragraph summary of what Kawauchi-san said. I’ve summarised in the way I see fit. Also, please note that I cannot use machine translation with this, so my translation may be less than perfect. Finally, the agenda was basically what the panelists asked and they just didn't ask about lenses much. Separating Pentax from GR
- In 2022, Ricoh Imaging has separated GR and Pentax and reviewed their sales strategy
- Separating them financially gives more clarity and freedom to use their brand strength to come out with new products
- Kawauchi-san covers both brands
- They still share parts and technology where it’s efficient or cheaper. For example, purchasing LCD screens
- The OS development is another point of collaboration
- They had had some push back from brand-loyal customers who didn’t like some sharing of functions that they perceived to weaken the brand. For example, some GR users reacted badly to the extra Pentax exposure modes that appeared on the GR (and GR II), such as SV About the 645z
- They are currently considering new sensors for the next 645 camera, but they don’t have anything specific to say
- K-mount is the number one priority at the moment
- Demand is also a problem
- There is an issue with to what extent older lenses will be usable on a new sensor
- The current 645z is extremely good value
- It would not be possible to come out with something at the same price now
- (Asked about a mirrorless 645) It would be unfair to the people who had gathered their existing lenses
- (When suggested that an adapter would solve this) Yes, but there would be an expectation that they would come out with a whole set of new lenses, which would not be realistic for many years Seasonal lens-specific custom image profiles
- Lots of criticism from the panelists about the profiles being limited to only certain lenses and only the HD variants
- Kawauchi-san explained that the idea was to give a small gift to people purchasing the senses as a thank you or incentive
- The panelists were not having this, and said it was really “mean”
- I think it’s fair to say that Pentax is hearing this feedback loud and clear in Japan too GR III and GR IIIx
- They had been concerned that making the GR IIIx would take sales from the GR III
- This was not the case and in fact both cameras have been selling above projections
- In fact, many GR III users are also buying GR IIIx cameras in addition
- People with both often want to have the second one in a different colour to distinguish
- Ricoh has kind of committed to always having a colour variant available to allow this About the K-mount cameras
- The panelists were saying that they don’t like or don’t use the K-1 II flip screen. Kawauchi-san responded that they have great feedback from it and that they hear many people wanted the screen on the K-3 III. Interesting to hear the Pentax guy defending the flip screen.
- There was a discussion about the new OS (firmware) on the K-3 III, and Kawauchi mentioned that a hypothetical K-1 III would have the new OS too. At no point did the panelists ask about the K-1 II successor and he just came out with that as an example
- The K-70 was known to have been discontinued at this point, and Kawauchi said that a the K-3 III is to expensive as an entry point for beginners and students, so there would be a standard model going forward. This was obviously the thinking behind keeping the KF in the line-up Other topics (of less interest outside Japan)
- J Limited was discussed. The concept was explained and panelists said how they had not been able to understand the appeal from images. They only got it when they saw the models in reality.
- The Club House and other recent face-to-face marketing events for Pentax and GR were discussed
- At the time CP+ participation was still not confirmed, but we know they decided not to have a booth in 2023.
The final comments were that 2022 had been year where a lot happened for Ricoh Imaging with reorganizations and other changes. Kawauchi-san apologized that they hadn’t been able to come out with many new products. It was a year of taking important steps for the future. Although 2022 was a quiet year, expect more to be excited about in 2023.
Another disclaimer at this point that I may have misunderstood some things while reading. My interpretation - The opinion part
I got a few impressions from the interview.
- Ricoh Imaging have not been idle in 2022, but just not able to release many products. Their company is now reorganized in the the way they want it.
- 645 is not abandoned and there will be a new model at some point. However, it is not the priority. I get the feeling that we will not see a camera based on the 100mp sensor. Total speculation, but larger, less dense sensor would seem to be a better solution for the problems they mentioned, or even a new film model.
- If their focus is on K-mount, it must mean a full frame camera at this point. A “K-1 III” will come and when it does, it will likely retain the flip screen.
- I think they might yet come back to exhibiting at CP+ at some time in future. Perhaps they just want to see how it goes in 2023.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
07-28-2022, 12:40 AM
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It's open today. They have AOCO/Pentax branded retro snacks.
Also, you've got to respect this visitor's effort. Cool thing to park in front of the Clubhouse. |
Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
06-08-2022, 04:14 PM
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
06-04-2022, 12:52 AM
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Ricoh Imaging announced their new strategy in an announcement on January 20 (??????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????RICOH IMAGING) and then provided further details of their “Pentax Co-creation Project” on March 1 (??????????????????????RICOH IMAGING)
There have been several articles, YouTube videos and forum posts explaining this over the last few months. However, they haven't provided much insight into what has actually changed and it has probably been unclear what the effect of this is for the way Pentax operates in Japan. There have been several developments that I've noticed but not felt important enough to post about. Taken together, they show what Ricoh/Pentax is up to.
I think Ricoh have been quite quick in making the changes, with quite a few events done already and the first crowdfunding campaign happening very quickly.
The way I see this is that Ricoh is reacting to the smaller market and the reality of their scale as a company. They have been trying to direct sales to the channels that are most profitable for them, stop doing things that are ineffective and start doing some new ideas. So in this post I’m going to list up the changes I’ve noticed in a start/stop/continue format by category.
I’ll just repeat that this is what I’ve observed in Japan, and not relevant to other countries. Japan marketing activity Started/strengthened
• More regular online events (Pentax day, J-Limited, SLR meeting)
• Campaign of events across Japan to let potential users try out cameras/lenses https://pentaxofficial.com/event/
• User surveys to Japan Ricoh Photo ID holders
• Staff reassigned to online promotion Stopped/weakened
• Didn’t plan to attend CP+ 2022 (not clear if this was new strategy or just for 2022 because they rightly predicted it would be cancelled) Japan showrooms Stopped/weakened
• Tokyo and Osaka Ricoh Imaging Square locations closed (more of an issue for Osaka)
• Marketing reps reduced (some reassigned to digital marketing) Started/strengthened
• Pentax Club House (Tokyo) announced. It looks like a better location but maybe a little smaller. ???????????????PENTAX???????????????RICOH IMAGING Retail Stopped/weakened
• Presence in Japan retail stores reduced. This is difficult to explain without visiting many stores, but Pentax has been dropped or reduced in some physical stores. This can vary between stores in the same chain. For example, I found a full display of Pentax lenses and cameras in the large Akihabara branch of Yodobashi, but the products have all gone from my nearest branch in west Tokyo.* Unchanged
• Even for retailers that stopped stocking Pentax in physical stores, they still sell Pentax on their websites
• GR and WG products seem to still be offered in the same stores physical stores that cut down on Pentax.* Started/strengthened
• Pentax/GR has started online storefronts in the Rakuten and PayPay e-commerce* platforms.*
• Pentax has started selling reconditioned and used products through J-Camera, an online platform for used camera dealers.*J-????????????????????????
• Pentax has started selling Lensbaby products through the Ricoh store. (Note: Lensbaby’s Japan distributor is Kenko-Tokina) Family Club Stopped/weakened
• The Family Club magazine will be discontinued
• Loyalty points for members have been reduced (e.g. I used to get 13% but now I get 3%) However, see the separate point below about pricing changes.* Started/strengthened
• There used to be two tiers of membership at around 3,000 yen and (Premium) 7,000 yen. Now there is just Premium membership at around 4,000 yen.*
• They seem to have strengthened lineup of Ricoh Academy seminars and are putting more focus on education.* Pricing Started/strengthened
• Prices at the Ricoh store have been reduced by about 10% to compensate for the aforementioned reduction in loyalty points.*
• The result is you don’t need to be a paid-up member to get a good deal direct from Ricoh.
• The K-3 III was reduced by more than other products.* Unchanged
• On balance, prices have not changed much, and certainly there is no shift to “boutique” pricing, which some people had be fearing Product offerings Started/strengthened
• Crowdfunding campaigns for*the K-3 III Jet Black and J-Limited strap. Seems to have gone successfully
• Likely plan to offer K-70 Astrotracer, K-3 III by crowdfunding Unchanged
• Current products have mostly remained in stock, as opposed to other makers that have been announcing supply issues Stopped/weakened
• Lack of significant product releases (but could due to parts shortages). I think this will improve soon, but for now it has been less fruitful that 2021.
So it is really early days still, but even two months after the strategy started in April, there have been quite a lot of improvements. I hope this helps to put it into perspective.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
05-29-2022, 06:41 PM
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Pentax announced a new facility in Tokyo for communication with customers. The exact opening date is not mentioned, but it says "in summer".
This is basically a replacement for the Ricoh Imaging Square locations that have been closed. It's interesting that this one is specifically for Pentax, so it would seem that other Ricoh products such are GR are not included.
The functions of the Club House are:
- Exhibition / sales of products centered on PENTAX
- Service center (inspection / repair reception of PENTAX products and repair reception of products handled by Ricoh Imaging)
- User lounge (experience use of PENTAX products, magazines, photo collections )
- Used as a place to disseminate information such as online live that connects with users from all over the world digitally
- In addition to the above, product history exhibits by theme are also planned.
This is basically what used to be done at the Shinjuku location, although they mention a that it is a new concept. From the CG renders, it looks a bit smaller, but a refreshed design over the old location.
Here is the announcement:
In Japanese: ???????????????PENTAX???????????????RICOH IMAGING
In English via Google (be aware of the limitations of auto-tralsation): Google Translate
And the good thing is it's on my way home from work.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
04-15-2022, 05:05 AM
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There was a very interesting development today, and one that basically putts rest the idea that Pentax is trying to bump up the prices of their products.
The prices of Pentax gear on the official Ricoh Store have been revised, and they have been revised down. That's right, against a background of other camera manufacturers raising prices, Pentax has reduced them on its site.
I was not keeping track of all the prices to give a before-after comparison, but I do know what happened with the K-3 III.
Before: 249,800 with a 3-year warranty
After: 202,210 yen with a 3-year warranty
It's a significant change and basically makes the Ricoh Store the best place to buy. You can get it slightly cheaper elsewhere, but only with the standard 1-year warranty. This is what Ricoh Imaging was trying to do - avoid the situation where brick-and-mortar retailers were forcing them into selling for an uncompetitive price.
I wouldn't assume that all products have had the same reduction. I think the K-3 III is the most extreme example, but the lenses seem to be cheaper than they were too.
The one catch is that you earn less store points when making a purchase, but the overall effect is a much better deal for the customer.
So a few months ago when I explained the background of the new strategy, I likened this to a Dell-style direct sales method, not a boutique-style Leica approach. I feel today's change pretty much proves this.
The only problem is that they have not announced a move to direct sales in other countries, so there is no logical reason why prices should change elsewhere for now.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
11-27-2021, 08:48 AM
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Thanks JPT! I attended too, this was the most fun part of the meeting. GPS-less astrotracing:
You first shoot the image w/o astrotracing and the camera figures out how the sky is moving relative to the camera. Then it will move the sensor in subsequent shots.
This is only coming to K-3III. No luck for other cameras.
This won't replace O-GPS1 (or the upcoming O-GPS2, the MC had to clarify that O-GPS2 will come). Wakashiro-san said that it could fail if the picture includes anything that are not stars, like landscape. Some lenses (e.g. fisheye) aren't good for this either while there's no such limitation for O-GPS devices. Also, though he didn't say this, you'll have to take a "preliminary" shot each time you change the position/angle of your camera. 6 variants of K-3 III and the conversion service:
I was like "wow are you serious?" but they are. Wakashiro-san admitted that there won't be huge demands, but there will be demands nevertheless, and said that they'd like to respond to these demands as far as that won't delay the development of other new products.- JET BLACK model (1st attachment).
- You'll choose the color of PENTAX logo from black, gray and nothing (no letter at all).
- Also mentioned briefly was the customization of the letters on dials and it was not just colors, you can actually change letters (but this might have been about Gun Metal model, cannot remember).
- Shallower shutter stroke model. Wakashiro-san explained that somebody who prefers to make many single shots quickly rather than continuous bursts might consider this.
- Monochrome model. Bayer-less means that this will be a resolution monster.
- MF model. The mirror is 100% reflective, no AF, no auto exposure, 30% brighter OVF (!).
- GUN METAL model. Same kind of color as the K-3 Prestige Edition released in the past (2nd attachment). You can specify an illustration on the pentaprism cover. As an example they showed AOCO logo.
- Astro model. 10 times more sensitive to H-alpha lines (infrared), which is a great feature for capturing nebulae etc.
- Some concern (vaguely stated as "something that is not good could be captured"). That should mean that PENTAX is worried some perverts will use visible-cut filters to make IR-only images of human body. They're thinking that they only sell to the users who are willing to sign a paper stating that they'll only use it for astro.
- Conversion service will be offered. It wasn't clear which conversion will be possible except that the MC, Kawauchi-san, said that the sensors cannot be replaced (so I cannot have my K-3III converted to astro or monochrome model even if I wanted).
They will use crowdfunding (they didn't say which one, but most likely Makuake, the same platform they used for PENTAX bino and monocular).
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
11-27-2021, 09:23 AM
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About the new custom image "Satobi".
I forgot to discuss this one in the previous post.
Devs said this is the polar opposite of "Miyabi" ("Vibrant" in English menu). "Taste of film from 60's and 70's."
Maybe you're like "meh, another SOOC jpeg setting" but many were super excited in the comment section. I think that there are many more jpg shooters in Japan than US and Europe. Anyway, as somebody who prefers RAW shooting, I have to say I'm impressed by this one.
Since they allowed "pictures of the meeting" (but no video capturing) I made some screen shots. Attached first is one of the example shots by Shin-ichi Hanawa, the second one by Keita Sasaki, two pros who discussed this new custom image. Sorry these were captured on my laptop over ZOOM, not the best in quality but you can see what they meant by "film from 60's and 70's", probably better quality ones will be released by Ricoh.
Devs also said that another enhancement in the new FW is that the tone curve will be displayed in custom image menu except for "cross process" and "reversal film" (3rd attachment).
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
11-27-2021, 11:12 AM
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I attended too, and here's my addition to JPT's excellent report. Lenses:
I have to add that there were many users including myself writing "Q-09 telephoto macro lens" in the comment. Next FF (sorry I initially titled this "K-1 successor", but looking at my memo, this was NOT necessarily about K-1 successor):
I was surprised that they are still internally debating its concept. They presented all four on the table in this order. - New prism a la K-3III, new image processing engine, higher Mp (no specific number was mentioned). Some K-3III technology. "Technically the most difficult." I thought that Wakashiro-san sounded as if he doesn't think that this will be likely.
- Low-res ("for example 25 Mp"), no new image processing engine, but quicker operation speed due to smaller data.
- "Compact, lightweight, simple model". Full manual. Sounded similar to K-3 III full manual model they want to offer on crowdfunding (discussed in another thread) but I'm not sure if that was really what Wakashiro-san was talking about.
- K-1 prism will stay the same, but based on the existing K-3 III tech. This is a much less ambitious version of 1.
Many in the comment section pushed for 4. Many also commented they don't need higher Mp. "Battle of DFA 21 Ltd Devs" photo competition.
I echo JPT's comment, it was great to know that developers/designers were themselves keen photographers. The winner of the competition (voted by the users) was Mr. Saori, the product manager(?), and he'll write an article about that on Pentax Official site in the future. "Official" camera and lens hashtag for social media.
Didn't know this, but apparently they've made a list of hashtags for Pentax cameras and lenses for social media use. Of course you're not forced to do anything but you're encouraged to use their "official" hashtag when sharing photos shot with Pentax camera and/or lens.
At the moment, all Pentax digital bodies are listed, even discontinued ones. But the list only covers the current lenses. See attached. Giveaway.
This was supposed to be done by rock, paper and scissors. People secretly vote their choice of rock, paper or scissors online. After everyone voted, president Akahane will declare his choice. People who won will proceed to the next round, and this repeats until the only one stands. The problem was that this was an honor-based system. Each round, the MC couldn't immediately identify who'll proceed, he just knew how many will.
Unfortunately enough people proceeded to the next rounds w/o actually winning, so at some stage they cancelled the thing and decided to randomly choose the winner (who will be announced later). A shame, really. Otherwise it was a good fun.
The prize is what the MC described as "something that's worthless for anybody except Pentax users", and that's about right I guess, but it's a really neat-looking display box with all elements of DFA 21 Ltd. New president Akahane.
As you know, he was the president of Ricoh Imaging Co. Ltd. before ex-president Takahashi took over, and now he's back. He was an investment banker specialized in restructuring other companies before hired by Ricoh. I didn't know what this means, so I was curious to hear what he had to say, like the subtlest sign about future of Pentax and things like that. You know, sometimes I overthink about these things. :lol:
Anyway, no clue yet. :lol::lol:
But there's this one thing Akahane-san told us that left me a strong impression.
He started by saying that people with smartphones are producing incredible number of pictures per day. He's extremely happy about that because this allows many people to build and maintain what he calls an instant, "horizontal" connection via photography. (I think he's visualizing that the time axis is running "vertically", and people who are living the same "now" moment are next to each other, "horizontally" if you will. )
On the other hand, in his view, the value of pictures shot with Pentax is that they are "vertical", will "live" beyond this "horizontal" moment to make connections over time. He continued "PENTAX wants to be able to live with you by your side." He was talking about pictures, but at the same time he was clearly talking about Pentax the brand and Pentax the products.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
11-27-2021, 06:07 AM
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I’ll explain the Q&A part of the Pentax Meeting event in this post. When registering to attend the session, there was a space to add a question to the product planning team. Obviously with 2000+ attendees, it wasn’t possible to answer every question one by one, but they grouped them together to come up with the top three themes. They were pretty much what you’d expect, so counting up from the 3rd to the 1st most common question, here is how they responded to them.
Q. Is there going to be a successor to the KP or K-70
A. Right now they’d really like us to buy the K-3 III - they were smiling as they said this. However, they realize it’s important to have a more accessible model, because there needs to be an attainable way for beginners to experience a DSLR. Beyond that they didn’t say anything specific, but we can assume there will be a low or mid-range APS-C camera at some point.
Q. What lenses are coming?
A. They started by apologizing that it had taken so long to deliver on the roadmap. They are working on the remaining lenses, but that is not all. They are also working on several lenses that are not on the roadmap, and some of these might come out before the roadmapped items. Reading between the lines, I get the feeling they don’t want to put new things on the roadmap unless they are really sure they can deliver. They asked users for ideas for what lens they’d like, and the 135mm and super telephoto seemed to be the most requested in the Zoom chat.
Q. What about the next full frame camera?
A. For a start, the K-1 II is their full frame model for time being. It is getting a firmware update in December to add a new custom image mode. It doesn’t look like it will be replaced in the immediate future. They talked about how difficult and how long it would take to come out with a model with a new prism like the K-3 III. It sounds like the expectation of a full frame version K-3 III with the prism of K-1 II is the most realistic.
They also have other ideas for cameras like a model with the same body design as the K-1 but a lower resolution to enable faster operation. They also mentioned the idea of a full frame manual model, which could be a lot smaller than the K-1 by removing some of the automation. It was interesting to hear that the designers do really think about some of the more out-of-the-box ideas, like people discuss on the forums. Other parts of the event today
- A showcase of the DFA21mm Limited. They did this by having five of the developers go out and take pictures with the lens that they think are both good images and that illustrate something the think is characteristic of the lens. This brought up various stories about the development of the lens. Then they asked the audience to vote for the the best set. It was quite a good way to talk about the lens and show that the designers are keen photographers themselves.
- Showing the winners of a photo contest
- A video made with user submitted photos of their cameras. It was done like a 102 version of the Pentax 100 video they did two years ago.
- A giveaway of cool display of the individual lens elements of the DFA21 Limited, like a real version of a lens element diagram in a glass case. The contest itself was a bit of a shambles though.
- The new President Noboru Akahane closed with a speech at the end. It was just a nice closing speech. He didn’t really say much about strategy or anything like that.
Obviously, this was an engagement event, not a product announcement. The main feeling was of a company trying to be close to its customers and trying to listen. I honestly thought they would show a mock-up of a lens or two, but it was a not an event like a press conference. We probably have to wait for something more public like CP+ for that
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
11-27-2021, 03:54 AM
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I attended the Pentax Meeting today. It was a fan event to celebrate the 102nd anniversary of the brand. I just have time to write a post about a part of it right now, so I’ll focus on the part about the evolution of the K-3.
This actually consisted of two elements - firmware and ideas for future variants. New firmware coming on December 7 (also for K-1 and K-1 II)
They have developed a new custom image profile called “satobi”. This was created partly to cater to the tastes of users overseas. They said the way it was developed was a little different from previous profiles. It’s a nostalgic image quality from the 60s-70s. It looks really nice. Made by looking at old images from overseas photographers and trying to replicates some of the more muted colors characteristic of pictures from the 60s and 70s. Then a couple of pro photographers came on to present some images shot with this profile. I know there are a lot of raw users who aren’t interested in the JPEG profiles, but this one is really nice and natural looking. I think a lot of people will appreciate it. New firmware coming spring 2022 - Add Astrotracer to K-3 Mark III (not K-1 or K-1 II this time)
(Note: This was difficult to understand, but I’m 80% sure this is what he said) The K-3 III developer described Shigeru Wakashiro explained that the problem with Astrotracer is having to do the calibration each time. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to use Astrotracer without doing that? Well it seems that they have figured out a way to do Astrotracer not only without calibration, but also without the need for GPS at all. This prompted a lot of wows from the participants, but it seems that the firmware update will just add Astrotracer without any need for extra hardware. There was not actual details of how this will work. It seems that test firmware will be released much sooner than that, but I’m afraid I couldn’t understand whether that meant anyone would be able t download it and try it out. Incidentally, they confirmed that this would not be coming t any other existing models, and also that the OGPS-2 accessory is still in the pipeline for next year. Future K-3 III variants
This was unusual. Wakashiro-san described six ideas for variants on the K-3 III and wanted to get feedback on them.
1. K-3 III Jet black - All black, almost like one of those computers keyboards with no markings at all
2. K-3 Shutter change model - A variant with a different feel to the shutter release
3. K-3 III Monochrome - No bayer filter model
4. K-3 III MF - Manual focus model, no AF sensor, 30% brighter VF, AF still possible in live view
5. K-3 III Gun metal - Basically like the K-3 prestige editions, with customizable markings on the prism, such as the AOCO mark
6. K-3 III Astro - Sensor filter changed to enable better astro photography (like other brands do)
They had a poll of attendees to see idea which sounds most attractive, and the two winners were the monochrome and the jet black model. But most ideas had their supporters. Some of them might be available as upgrades/mods for existing users (1, 2, 5). It’s also possible that they might use Kickstarter to gauge interest (note that Pentax did that successfully with a novel pair of binoculars before).
So this was the content of the event as far as the K-3 III is concerned. I’ll post separately about what they said about other APS-C models, lenses and the future of the K-1, but don’t expect anything too specific, because nothing was announced, shown or added to the roadmap.
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Forum: Pentax News and Rumors
09-16-2021, 08:32 AM
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If they develop it themselves people will just call it Tamron rebadge anyway. Why would they bother?
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Forum: Pentax K-3 III
05-02-2021, 06:24 AM
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Working on part II fyi. Want some quality images and more indepth writing about the AF and other changes of the K3 MK III. I'm thinking about 3 steps ahead here, but the K3 Mk III has impressed me so much I'd like to see K1 Mk III with a fast frame rate and similar AF system as well. That would bode really well for Pentax. So far the PLM seems to be the best choice for AF continuous tracking, but I'm trying to obtain the 150-450 as well. PLM tech has its limitations for future designs, so SDM is important to report on as well. Just wish Sigma made more K mount lenses. I use my 100-400mm C f/5-6.3 on my D500 (its that fast and the IQ is amazing), so of course I wish I had the same lens for the Pentax K3 Mk III. But I'll make due with what we have available.
*Edit: Let me add by saying that although I have a lot of Pentax gear, I don't have many of the SDM lenses because I opted to boost up my Nikon system for BIF and action work. (I only have so many resources). I may go the lensrental.com route and test the K3 MK III with the 60-250 SDM and 150-450 HD. We'll see. More to come, likely by the time I get my stuff posted there will be plenty online about the AF system already, it's always a horse race :)
*Edit#2: I may also test the 70-210mm f/4, I know it's not the sharpest on peripherals, but it's likely the fastest focusing compared to the PLM. We'll see.
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