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Forum: Pentax DSLR Discussion 01-14-2020, 02:34 PM  
Thinking of buying a K10D
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 35
Views: 2,322
All posts taken in stride. I like the K10D too, mostly because it gives me those "deep black" 0,0,0 shadows when trying to shoot something outdoors. Only halfway kidding, after shooting the K10D for so long I feel like the world is itself a bit overexposed. But I'm also conscious of liking a lot of unique things not on the leading edge of the performance curve, so for everyone else's safety I think it's important to highlight the limitations. In this case, I'm realising the OP and everyone involved are pretty well aware of those.
Forum: Pentax DSLR Discussion 01-14-2020, 02:11 PM  
Thinking of buying a K10D
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 35
Views: 2,322
Ok, I apologise, the OP did write "I like the K10D because of the way it renders the photos, when I was browsing the flickr group the photos look like they were shot on film, after all it has a CCD sensor." I failed to read properly.

He should definitely buy a K10D, my responses are inconsistent with what we need to write to someone looking to validate the CCD look and film feel of the camera.

It definitely has a look and probably will do what he wants, sounds like an educated shopper.
Forum: Pentax DSLR Discussion 01-14-2020, 12:51 PM  
Thinking of buying a K10D
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 35
Views: 2,322
I mean obsolete simply in the sense that it is no longer current, and where all of its features and capabilities have been superceded in subsequent cameras. You can definitely get a lot of use out of it, but with a K1 budget you can get a lot of cameras better in literally every respect. It is obsolete in the sense that no one rationally unnostalgically chooses to buy a Corvair when they can have a Corolla.






Pretty much. I am a Luddite myself. I have owned a K10D since 2009 and only recently bought a KP. I hated the KP because the shooting experience and battery management were crippled in comparison. It only gained appeal when I put a 40mm pancake lens on it and made it a my everyday carry, where the dynamic range and better sensor means more keepers.

The experience also showed me how good the K10D still is when shooting raw, when fitted with a fast prime, and when I fixed some mild back-focusing issues that it apparently had for a long time (and all along I thought it was just due to being old). But I don't fool myself, most of the photos I take with it are flawed under difficult conditions. But people use Instagram filters that make scientifically perfect photos look grainy or washed out, and some people take photos with disposable cameras or instant cameras and like the feel or character. I happen to be happy with the limitations and the low cost, and apparently you are too. But being happy with an old weak product takes a lot of introspection, or delusion.
Forum: Pentax DSLR Discussion 01-14-2020, 07:03 AM  
Thinking of buying a K10D
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 35
Views: 2,322
The K10D is an objectively obsolete camera. It does not do anything that cannot be done by more modern cameras with postprocessing to get the feel you want if necessary. The color information is there to work with.

What the K10D does provide that more modern cameras sometimes do not provide is exceptional ergonomics in terms of size and shape, durability and water resistance, shoulder display, minimal LCD use, efficient always-on/sleep, and very fast power-on to shoot times for maximum battery conservation.

This amounts to functionality appropriate for a top of the line professional camera for its time, and the physical shooting experience even today reflects that superiority over low and and mid range cameras and even many prosumer cameras that cost 10x more.

Aside from that, one must accept and embrace its limitations. Yes, it looks best at low ISO, but you will fight dynamic range issues. You will adjust EV to preserve highlight detail, and your photos will be dark. You will need to use prime lenses with a fast aperture, like the 50mm DA. You will sometimes use a high ISO and accept the noise. You will have blurred photos. You will shoot RAW to avoid turning sensor noise into JPG grease. You may use flash indoors. These are things forced on you when you want to simply take a shot in bad conditions.

It is also fine. Limitations display what we sometimes see as character, and which, if embraced and worked artfully, can demonstrate a style. Perhaps as ungraceful and anachronistic as using straight skis in the age of side-cut, but if that is what you enjoy, that is what you should do.
Forum: Pentax KP 08-09-2019, 02:18 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Totally agree on that point. I stopped trying to use the K10D around the house since it's often low light conditions. When going out I use a 1.8f 50mm to avoid needing to raise the ISO. I happily use the KP indoors since I don't need to wrangle it on a shoulder strap and only use my 18-55 and 18-135 with the KP now, and for birding or sports it is the only sensible choice.
Forum: Pentax KP 08-08-2019, 12:39 PM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
I have to come back and sort of agree, again, that the K10D is just a great tool for the job. I feel terrible but I am still using the KP mostly at home, not much on my quick outings or day trips. Despite better power management I somehow keep draining the battery, not sure if it has a hungry sleep mode or if the LCD or meter is turning on while its resting against my shoulder. But not being able to take photos because it is empty sort of sucks. If I figure it out I will share, there has to be a reason. In the meantime I don't remember when I last charged the K10D. The feel in hand is a big factor for me, I can very easily grab and maneuver the K10D. It also balances out a telephoto just fine. I am trying to score a cheap 40mm pancake and hopefully the KP clicks for me that way.
Forum: Site Suggestions and Help 08-01-2019, 05:22 AM  
Error Constant 404 errors on longer posts?
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 3
Views: 560
Forum: Pentax KP 08-01-2019, 04:35 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Thanks again for the replies everyone. They were genuinely helpful, both in terms of concrete feedback on solutions and also general validation and perspective.

I've had a few more days to play with the K10D and the KP side by side. I think the comparison is giving me a more objective picture of the KP. Now that I can focus on some specific points, a few revisions/clarifications are needed.


1. I withdraw my comments about the KP meter wake-up time being materially different. Once the meter goes to sleep (no more overlay visible in viewfinder), it might be that the KP takes 200ms while the K10D takes 100ms to wake. But I can only really perceive that by adjusting the controls and observing the time it takes for the viewfinder overlay to appear. But the real functional duration of time it takes from mashing the shutter button to actuation is basically the same, especially if you factor in AF time.

2. As a corollary of 1, the shutter speed and aperture settings are visible on the LCD even when the meter/overlay goes to sleep. In Av the aperture updated in realtime on the LCD, just like a shoulder display. Being able to toggle the LCD on using the function dial is great.

3. The startup time of the KP is definitely slow in comparison. Turning it off when looking to fire off shots on the go is not a good idea. It needs to hang out in standby. How that compares to the battery life of the K10D in an equivalent shooting scenario, where I can turn the camera off, I don't yet know. Theoretically, sleep with meter off should be very low power.

4. Additional time with the cameras has really highlighted some ergonomic differences. The KP is really hard to shoot single-handed with big hands, unless you're comfortable with a finger position and grip force you'd only otherwise use for a 5.12 grade climb. I removed the L grip and replaced it with the S and it feels way better, less sharp angles. However, I need to depend on my palm and second hand to really stabilize it. With a tele like the 18-135 the weight is so far forward that two hands are necessary. It sucks that there is only a bit of soft grip on the left side-front to grab with my left hand, versus the nice curved edge on the K10D.*


I really wish companies published their product manager's design brief with their products, because it would be illuminating. The big LCD is clearly the center of the design here. It dominates the back of the camera, starting with a massive bezel all the way to the left edge. It stretches across the camera to the far right, where it leaves little room for the condensed button pad and even less for the vestigial rear grip.


This use of space comes down to two things. One is that the LCD itself is bigger than the K10D LCD. The second, more important factor, is that it is articulating, which necessitates a robust bezel. A fixed LCD could get away with small bezels.


Why does it have such an LCD? Certainly it allows for a somewhat improved review experience, given the size and ability to review results from a fixed and pre-configured shooting position below eye-level. It also supports live view shooting, which is obviously the point here. If I had to envision a design goal that summarizes the KP for me, it is offering the benefits of a mirrorless camera in the smallest DSLR form factor possible. No need to live view and you basically don't need an articulating LCD, which wins back a lot of camera real estate. In my limited experience, I've found the live view slower than my Lumix LX10 compact camera at focusing, and the lack of touch screen to be a significant drawback in the LCD-centric workflow.


On the right shoulder one finds two additional dials, one used for controlling various functions (AE, HDR, etc) and the other for controlling the settings of those functions, or for controlling exposure settings when a special function is not engaged. On the top front, instead of a horizontal dial like on the K10D you find an equivalent larger vertical dial (parallel to surface of the camera).


These additional dials exclude the possibility of a shoulder LCD in the design, and the front dial in particular is positioned in a way that prevents the existence of a larger grip (or, conversely, allows a thinner grip).


Despite all these changes that could make the camera more compact, the center thickness behind the lens mount is about the same as the K10D, so the thinness seems theoretical at best, and messes with the weight balance of the camera. A forward, thick grip offers an inherent balance point in-hand against the weight of the camera body and lens combined.


I guess what I am realizing now, is that the KP probably exists because some photographers really do like live view for static subjects in good light. Studios, landscape, architecture, etc. Additionally, it is a technological bridge forward for Pentax in evolving the use of the LCD as part of the shooting experience (versus merely the review of results).


I am not yet convinced that is what I need. I like the K10D for its simplicity, directness, and clarity of purpose, I just wish it had a better sensor.


But I don't see a good alternative to the KP right now in the Pentax world. A K3 looks closest to the K10D in terms of size and ergonomics, and if that is what I had bought, I wouldn't be posting here right now. But I feel it's too much of a downgrade in terms of AF and low light performance to rationalize a downgrade. I got a new camera for new camera performance. A K1 is way too much.


So I guess that puts me in line with the rest of everyone looking for a K3 successor. The KP is not that, it is a different kind of camera. I wish I had understood that beforehand, but I nonetheless look forward to exploring its capabilities and adapting. Change is always hard and technical innovation often looks like waste and inconvenience at first...
Forum: Site Suggestions and Help 08-01-2019, 04:30 AM  
Error Constant 404 errors on longer posts?
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 3
Views: 560
It's really frustrating, I have tried posting on my laptop and my cell phone and I keep getting forum 404 errors on submit/post when writing messages longer than 2 or 3 lines. It's as if a DoS or firewall is killing my connection because the payload is too large. What's going on?

This has been happening for 2 weeks, using my ordinary EU based devices or VPN through any other country.
Forum: Pentax KP 07-26-2019, 01:49 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Three interesting points.

I agree the viewfinder is great. However, having info in the viewfinder depends on the meter operating (set with meter operating time in C-menu), which uses power and has a perceptible wake time. I don't have my K10D with me so not sure if that is a universal feature of viewfinder overlays, that they are tied to metering. A shoulder LCD uses negligible power and can be always on.

Memorizing clicks is a good idea, I like solutions that emphasize operator skill. I am not sure I can rip from f3.5 to f11 quickly that way but definitely willing to try, I can probably approximately count swipes of the wheel and get close.

The ergonomics are a factor for me too. I can manage to hold it okay but with a tele lens it is harder to handle one handed than the K10D. Someone wrote that the KP is best paired with the 20-40 limited lens and I think that is right, or a pancake prime.

I have three batteries with me but foolishly did not bring a charger thinking I could get a week of sporadic shooting out of them like I would with the K10D. Lack of in body charging definitely punished that decision. :)

Just gotta see how it plays out over the next few weeks when I can risk more power usage and try out occasional LCD use and keeping metering on.
Forum: Pentax KP 07-25-2019, 01:55 PM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
The input above has been helpful. I think the absence of a top LCD screen means quite obviously that the back LCD is intended instead for reviewing settings. Unmarked dials don't make sense unless you see what they do, after all. I can't imagine that the designers imagine people glued to the viewfinder while running metering constantly. And yes that means I need to tilt the camera to see the screen, but it is perhaps not awful outside of a true pro environment.

Switching the camera on and off is not good due to the delay, but I can turn the LCD on using the function dial as suggested previously, I set that up and will test while battery #3 still lives on my current no-charger vacation. For one thing, I wonder how the meter operating time and LCD interact, and if LCD on keeps the camera awake. Will report back on that.

Ultimately though, I need to acknowledge that the KP is designed with a mirrorless/compact camera kind of user in mind, someone who wants to spend time with an LCD. I did not know that before, but I also didn't know that the K10D was a flagship pro camera back in its day and allows for things a midrange won't do.

If I want more of a manual experience I think some of you are right and I need to check out the K5 or K3. I don't mind a big camera, I actually want a brick right there so I don't fumble around with two handed settings or bad grip.
Forum: Pentax KP 07-25-2019, 05:16 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Ok got this working by using Tapatalk and updated my post with even more whining.

So helpful suggestions, I do like the idea of binding LCD display options to a wheel. I burned a battery with under 100 photos, playing around a few minutes at a time over 6 hours (maybe 1 hr total on time). But that was with the LCD left on while shooting to play with settings and lots of half-press eyeballing and AF and IBIS on. Maybe 20% live view to decide I hated it.

Since then I have realized the LCD is best off, but still grumpy about lack of shoulder/top display. I was working on a trail in mixed shadow and light and didn't like being tied to the viewfinder to adjust exposure as I moved along.

And even accepting that I am worried about burning battery with longer meter operating time to avoid the control lag as it wakes up.

I realize this is a photography forum and not a therapy group so tips like easier LCD toggle are appreciated, and also wondering if I should switch back to a K20D or look at a K3 to get my desired performance. Or maybe a Fuji so I can see the settings on the dials. Or is the future just battery grips and lots of power consumption?
Forum: Pentax KP 07-25-2019, 02:30 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Damn I keep getting 404 errors when posting or editing. Thanks for replies. Will edit and reply properly another time.
Forum: Pentax KP 07-25-2019, 02:05 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
Sorry could not finish my message, bad internet or forum problems. Working on it.
Forum: Pentax KP 07-25-2019, 01:55 AM  
K10D -> KP frustration w/ exposure display, power management, startup and wake time
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 32
Views: 3,174
I am looking for suggestions and perspectives. I like to carry my camera around all day on a strap and shoot on impulse. Fast, varied, and spontaneous. I have been shooting with a K10D for years don't know anything else, it just always worked for me. It was fast on, fast to shoot and lasted all day.

I am now feeling stymied by the KP. The startup time is too slow to keep it off and turn it on and take a fast shot. The LCD burns through power extremely fast so I am shooting with it turned off. When it is off I can't review and adjust my exposure settings at a glance or get warning when overexposing before bringing the viewfinder to my eye (no top LCD/shoulder display). I started to get used to using the viewfinder and memorizing my settings, but now I am struggling with the "meter operating time". This determines how long the camera metering function is on before going to sleep (which burns power), but it also controls how long the settings display in the viewfinder. But when I set it to switch off after the minimum 3 seconds, the wake up time becomes problematic. The controls take half a second to wake up, so every tweak has lag time. This also adds half a second to shutter actuation, which is tremendously frustrating when I am sitting waiting for the "right moment" and the darn thing goes to sleep. Even setting everything to full manual makes it no faster to fire, the meter still needs to wake up.

The feeling of "you are doing it wrong" isn't new to me, and usually means I got the wrong equipment for the job or I need to change my antiquated style.

What's going on here? Do I need a pro flagship camera that has fast-on with shoulder LCD? Have all cameras moved to more power consumption and more complicated software that takes longer to wake?
Forum: Sold Items 04-12-2011, 11:59 PM  
For Sale - Sold: Pentax K10d & da 18-55 (Worldwide)
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 2
Views: 2,391
Sending you a PM.
Forum: Welcomes and Introductions 04-12-2011, 11:58 PM  
Hello!
Posted By MotoMind
Replies: 1
Views: 549
I am starting a motorcycle trip in a month and need a WR camera. Looking to get a K10D!
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