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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
09-13-2013, 06:18 AM
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I'm in the same boat, pretty much exactly. Currently I'm feeling the obligation to use the damn D600 and not my medium format film cameras because... I just bought the damn thing, and I want to try out the quality and possibilities to see where they go. Although, with a small prime the D600 isn't all that bad, but still nothing like a Pentax.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
09-13-2013, 05:48 AM
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I think he meant using P645 lenses on a "35mm" full frame camera. Assuming the reducer does all the AF and AE tricks, could be viable, but not as the sole road forward.
Sadly, now that I own a D600, the idea of full frame is not such a great lure; I doubt I will invest in another digital camera for a while, unless I sell the D600. I would likely see no need to buy a possible Pentax FF at this point, unless there was something really compelling for me to switch. For the Pentax marketing folks, the calculation has to be: how many people like me leak over to the other 3... and whether we're likely to come back to Pentax, and for what reason. (I don't see the need to buy another APS-C SLR for some while either, and by that time, who knows what the market will offer...)
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
09-06-2013, 10:01 AM
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In this context I'll make my confession yet again. In the 70's and 80's I went with the herd, based on what I read in Modern and Popular (I subscribed to Modern)... Pentax at the time, despite the 645, was in 35mm SLR's an amateur's brand. Never mind that perhaps their cameras actually may have suited my amateur needs better than those of the cachet brands -- which at the time were Nikon, Canon, Olympus.
I was enough of a contrarian that I didn't want a Nikon or Canon. Olympus was sexy, and Olympus was hot, and I learned photography with a Pen FT. So that's what I was pre-sold on. When I went to 47th Street Photo (at the time, it was up there with B&H and Adorama in reputation) the salesman tried to sell me a Minolta instead. No sale, I walked out of that store with an OM 2sp.
The reason I'm telling this story is that there's a similar market set up right now -- Pentax can't remain an 'amateur' brand, a sensible alternative to the other cameras out there, without having market trouble. Canon and Nikon are Canon and Nikon, they get that 'pro' cachet. OIympus is doing its innovation which gives it excitement. And Sony is putting a lot of different new stuff out there, seeing if something will stick.
So maybe it doesn't have to be full frame, but Pentax needs to have something exciting coming that helps it differentiate in a positive way.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-21-2013, 02:40 PM
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Really, under no circumstance will there ever be a $1000 FF, or a $750 one? :D Never say never... I'm sure they want to stick with what they got as long as they can, but at the same time they need to keep the market at a happy simmer.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-21-2013, 02:16 PM
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Yes, but will that be economical for the manufacturers, as at that price point you get severe competition from other formats, and no longer have the SLR 'quality advantage' to bank on. I know I bought a NEX at $250; my cell phone contract would get me a phone in that range; or one of the quality compacts would make much more sense than a SLR, at that price.
At $500 the SLR is still a hard sell -- already (though I'm a minority in this) I don't consider anything but a K-30 as a sensible buy in the APS-C SLR format. I'd be much more interested at a top-end mirrorless of some kind, or stretching the extra $250 to get FF in this future scenario. Right now it's more difficult, as Nikon doesn't truly have a K-30 equivalent (low price - limited lens compatibility; or a D7000/7100 at the K-5 II price point), and the price penalty for a D600 is still very high.
I suppose there will be people who would rather pay $750 for a fancy APS-C SLR; but if you could get (even a down-spec'd functionality) FF for the same price, and one that does the Nikon trick of adjusting to APS-C crop with APS-C lenses....
I wish I could speculate with Pentax, but I'll use Nikon as a substitute. Once the FF camera is where the D7000/7100 are now, price wise, Nikon's got a bit of a marketing problem. Do they move the prosumer (i.e. screw drive support, metering support) to the lower consumer area (D5100/5200 etc on down) and in turn move their crippled cameras even lower? I suppose Nikon could support an ultra PRO APS-C D300 successor at the $1-1.25K level, but I dunno.
There's also the pixel count argument, in that at some pixel level the APS-C will start to lose its price advantage...
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-21-2013, 01:07 PM
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And thus they will be eaten into by the even cheaper camera/phones... If you could have a full frame for $750, or a super fancy compact from Ricoh, Fuji, Nikon, Sigma et al for a bit less, or pay $500 for an APS-C... there's not much pricing room between the phones and the bottom of the Good Camera market.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-21-2013, 07:04 AM
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In the truly long term, you might be right. I'm thinking however that the market will become more polarized in the near term: phones eat the P&S segment, leaving room for enticing high-end compacts and evils... The APS-C SLR may feel a squeeze, as FF sensors become cheaper
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-12-2013, 04:49 PM
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-12-2013, 04:43 PM
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QED.
Btw, there are some dust shadows on the K-30 (what a disaster! what a scandal!) :p
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-09-2013, 11:20 AM
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These are extremely sloppy (I left the Nikon at 6400 the whole time, and skipped 3200 with the Pentax) quickie tests of some of the theorized roundabouts between the two formats.
a. DOF, especially close up work.
Pentax Filmo 1/60 f/4 ISO 1600 31mm by Nesster, on Flickr
Nikon Filmo 1/250 f/5.6 ISO 6400 48mm by Nesster, on Flickr
In this application 6400 is not so good -- I would not choose to use it, but was too lazy to put a faster speed on it. F4 on the Pentax gets the lens in focus while f/5.6 doesn't on the Nikon.
b. Nikon AF is more consistent than Pentax, and quicker. Nikon did hunt less, and to my eye, with the 6400 noise, seems to have hit the dancer's face consistently. Pentax hunted a bit and there was one total miss (as usual attributable to a sloppy camera operator). Lenses are the DA 16-45 f/4 and 24-120 3.5-5.6 AF-D Nikkor; both older but quality lenses. Pentax has SR on, the Nikon lens is not VR.
c. At 6400 FF beats APS-C. Unfortunately I screwed up and didn't shoot a 3200 series; so I can only present a 1600 vs 6400 test.
d. DOF -- the FF at 5.6 has about a stop shallower DOF -- see below, I did manage to stop the Pentax down to f4.
These are 100% crops all
Nikon 6400 f/8 by Nesster, on Flickr
Pentax 6400 f/5.6 by Nesster, on Flickr
Nikon 6400 f5-6 by Nesster, on Flickr
Pentax 1600 f/4 by Nesster, on Flickr
Same set, this time the full image. Overall point of view etc. Pentax metered much darker and warmer than Nikon (given the standard settings) and I had to do a ~ +1.3/1.4 adjustment with the center slider on levels.
Pentax 1/125 f/4 ISO 1600 28mm +1.4 lighten by Nesster, on Flickr
Nikon 1/320 f/5.6 ISO 6400 48mm by Nesster, on Flickr
Pentax 1/250 f/5.6 ISO 6400 28mm +1.4 lighten by Nesster, on Flickr
Nikon 1/125 f/8 ISO 6400 50mm by Nesster, on Flickr
So yeah, this proves beyond a doubt that most of the time it is the photographer's inattention and incompetence that is the deciding factor in image quality and proper usage of each format. It also points out some 'house flavor' in the two manufacturers' view of how to automate. And finally, originally I'd thought of pitting the DA 70 against the Ai 105/2.5 manual focus lens, but I simply got too lazy.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-07-2013, 09:41 AM
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But they haven't and unless I sell the Nikon I won't be looking for a long while. The only Pentax I'm thinking of getting rid of is the K-x.
For the distinctive bit, they can find a novel way to create a QC issue.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-07-2013, 09:40 AM
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Well, as they already have a crop 120 camera, why not a 120 color film full 6x4.5 camera with a 35mm digital back?
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-07-2013, 09:00 AM
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... :D .... and while I'm 'reviewing' the D600: I don't mind yellow and black, I don't even mind it saying Nikon on it, but why do they feel the need to advertise the model number on the damn strap??? Is that for the typical ego-compensating Nikon buyer (which I appear to be one of)? Pentax has this one right, and classy. I put on a vintage red and black strap with clips so I can remove it, and now the Nikon is tolerable to take out of the house. I might even put a Pentax strap on it. ;)
I bought it factory "reconditioned". S-jeah, sure. The copyright value is still set to the prior owner (Hi!) and sure enough, there are sensor blobs in frame 1 of the camera. In other words, Nikon did nick name for richard except cosmetically. But I don't mind the sensor, I've been cleaning them for years. The copyright is cool, though I could not figure out how to change it.
The vaunted Nikon three dee distance and color savvy matrix metering seems to over expose, especially flowers, where Pentax doesn't. Oh, and what's with the default auto pop up flash? (again, I'll need to dive in the manual to make that one work the Pentax way)...
24 MP is vast.
DSC_0017 by Nesster, on Flickr
DSC_0017 by Nesster, on Flickr
DSC_0021 by Nesster, on Flickr
All taken with the "embarrassing" AF-D 28/2.8 Nikkor.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-07-2013, 05:37 AM
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That chart is precisely the chart of NEW DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY PROMISE vs ACTUAL EMOTIONAL AND PHOTOGRAPHIC RESULTS when TAKING FULL COST INTO ACCOUNT.
My mini review of the K-30: nice camera, gave it to daughter to use. Haven't read the manual so I don't know what all it will do. Tried shooting with it, the clouds haven't parted.
My mini review of the D600: nice camera, gave it to daughter to use. Trying to read the manual so we can figure out how to use the damn thing. Tried shooting with it, the clouds definitely did not part.
My mini review of a 1915 No.1 Autographic Kodak Special: Loads of fun, the lens amazed, the results are encouraging, though there are scratches on the film and some light leaks.
My mini review of a 1898 Cooke lens on a '40s RB Graflex 2x3: Lots of fun getting it to work, nice results. The skies parted.
My mini review of a Pentax MX: whoa, the D600 calls itself a full frame camera? Not if you look in the view finder. Ok so I can't adjust ISO from shot to shot from 100 to 100,000,000,000,000, and the AF sucks, the AE sucks, and it lacks nearly every mode and feature that sells cameras these days. Nice camera after Eric did his thing, I gave it to my nephew for his 21st birthday. Missed it, so bought another from KEH in their EX condition.
Now, I'm not a total troglodyte and Luddite when it comes to modern cameras. Both are much nicer to use than the old K100D, and although I don't have direct experience as yet, I can imagine both will have better focusing than my daughter's K-x. On the other hand, I tote up the total spend, less any future sale proceeds, and I can fairly predict the overall cost is far more than with the rest of my film camera menagerie put together. Mind you, the K100D is at a point where I'm not sure it is worth selling, the K-x still is...
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-05-2013, 10:11 AM
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Of course she will try things with the K-30; I'm not going to let her keep the 600 full time ;) The issues were with her K-x, which I didn't understand either why that would be, but let's say she had the problem at two different art schools and with knowledgeable teachers. At any rate, the K-x is something I'm using now, but will be selling.
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-05-2013, 04:08 AM
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I gave up, this is all academic to me now.
Reasons of course are personal, and not any sort of objective performance or quality driven ones; though likely we'll appreciate any benefits thereof.
Reason 1: daughter starting art major in photography. Nikon is a brand the college photo departments understand when it comes to digital. She has had trouble with Pentax in such studio situations, getting the strobe lighting to expose properly, and for the camera to focus more consistently.
Reason 2: theoretically daughter can take a F100 to school and have a film and digital swappable kit.
Reason 3: I like old lenses and want a camera that can use them. I'm happiest in the wide angle to 105mm range which has put a damper on my happiness in APS-C.
Reason 4: As daughter's college is two stops from where I work, we can work out gear swaps as needed. She can still use her K-30 to take advantage of our DA 70 and FA 43.
oh, it's a refurbished D-600. I'd have happily bought the same camera with a Pentax mount and logo on it. Now, sadly, it will likely be quite some while before I'll be looking at a Pentax body again - I have to pay for above college ;)
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-03-2013, 05:40 AM
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Excellent analysis and info -- yes, things are a compromise. For my daughter's young eyes the APS-C size works great, for me it still does though the sheer real estate of a larger optical vf is starting to have its allure. The cost benefit -- 'performance' I might not want to pay for -- of the Nikon D600, for instance, is still a bit difficult to justify.
EVF's will get to the point where in most cases they are the equivalent of an optical vf, and yes, then it all becomes format agnostic.
The importance of the vf in a SLR is different than for other types of focus/composition aids. I'm happy going without, or with those old squinty aiming frames etc. Even with range finders --- sure it is nicer to have a larger one, showing what's outside the frame, plus a clear rf patch, but with non SLR's the photographer (or at least I) spend more of my attention on the outside of the camera/process, whereas with the SLR nearly all of my attention is crammed inside that eyehole ;)
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Forum: Pentax Full Frame
08-02-2013, 12:55 PM
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Another advantage is the larger view finder, making it easier to see and focus manually. For me the idea of 'filmless 35mm' photography is alluring
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