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Forum: General Photography 01-13-2019, 09:57 AM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
This here is a quite good example of what we are talking about (even if old news):
Noise comparison between hot and cold sensor (long exposure): Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
The decrease of image quality in the mirrorless camera after just 10 minutes of video usage and heating the sensor is quite obvious.

Another interesting bit is that Canon even explicitly seems to warn about image degradation after longer liveview shooting:
dslr - Do mirrorless cameras have more sensor noise because they are constantly exposed to light? - Photography Stack Exchange

And here I found a very good graph showing how different the sensor noise for long exposures can grow:
Length of Exposure vs Sensor Temp. - DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing - Cloudy Nights
At the end of the thread there is a similar measurement to the one I have done, there with a Nikon D5100 doing long exposures.

and here are some interesting evaluations:
https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=10773
(old tiny sensors, but still interesting)
Forum: General Photography 01-13-2019, 04:00 AM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
^^This.

If you follow the links already provided in above threads you'll see that Jim Kasson has clearly identified Sony noise reduction massaging raw files: The Sony a7RIII eats stars
Sony manipulates raw files at least from ISO 1000 (probably even at lower ISO) by "spatial filtering".
And Jim Kasson is rather a Sony fan than somebody being too critical.


Bill Claff's page simply turns a blind eye (as discussed elsewhere, his whole approach is highly questionable in many other ways as well).
Forum: General Photography 01-13-2019, 02:09 AM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
I bet you understand that the subjective bit here is, what is "fringe conditions".
I could argue that the vast majority of photographers uses smartphones and considers all scenarios where a ILC is preferable "fringe conditions". And that would be a sound quantitatively based assumption.

Within the minority group ILC usage class again it is open to debate which items are "fringe conditions". I could argue that all shooting scenarios where the dynamic range differences between a K-7 and a K-1 are important are "fringe conditions". And just the same any shooting scenarios where today noobs complain about improved automation helpers (autofocus, green mode etc) are "fringe conditions" as for vast majority user groups they do not pose any problem.
Since all caneras today are so well rounded I guess all negative findings are for "fringe conditions".

I see only two scientifically sound ways to approach this:
  1. we describe the issues as any general problem plus we describe the caveat : the exact parameters under which they appear and where it will not. Here the burden of evaluation is still on the reader to judge relevancy.
    It is like all "resolution" discussions on forums. I guess only a tiny minority really understands how seldom they'll ever recognize differences between real life images.

  2. (preferred for most levels of readers) we first define a realistic usage pattern in detail (some users who shoot wildlife day in and day out could discuss and describe their usage) and the "test" / "measurement" then tries to emulate the scenario. The findings obviously then only are valid for this usage pattern. Wildlife sensor heatup is not the same as sensor heatup for users who already complain that they have to push the button again after 30 min of non-stop video recording.

Forum: General Photography 01-12-2019, 01:33 PM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
It is casual holiday snapshots versus well composed shots or those for which you need to watch / follow / track the subject for a prolonged time (e.g. any wildlife, birding, sports). In the latter cases you will keep your eyes at the viewfinder for a long time per shot or series of shots.
This will require the DSLM to keep the sensor busy all the time and for long times.

If you just raise the camera to the eye every hour and then quickly take a shot that will not impact sensor temperatures in any ILC.

If I was a wildlife shooter and spending a lot of time checking the viewfinder at anyhow higher ISOs I'd be worried though about the impact of heat induced noise.
Forum: General Photography 01-12-2019, 02:03 AM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
I don't think I have the exact environmental temperature data recorded. I think it was around 23 °C. I did quite some playing around before I did these recordings, so the camera body and sensors were already heated up to the levels shown.
I would expect that the increments will be even higher in the beginning if you start off in cool state.

Since I did measure the temperature with an IR camera it all was with lens off. I'd expect the more limited air circulation with a lens to cause even steeper increases.

---------- Post added 12th Jan 2019 at 10:19 ----------

Here is also more thorough information on Sony's star eater problem:

Star Eater: Documentation of an Issue with the Sony Cameras for Astrophotography (and How to Fix It) – Lonely Speck

and

Sony Star Eater






QuoteQuote:

The “Star Eater” problem is a form of software spatial filtering designed to reduce noise in photos, particularly hot pixels. Unfortunately, the rather rudimentary filtering algorithm that Sony is using easily mistakes sharp pinpoint stars for noise, nearly deleting them from the image or greatly reducing their brightness. The result is an astrophoto with less stars and the appearance of diminished resolution. Sony a7RII, a7SII and a7RIII cameras exhibit this problem for all exposure times longer than 3.2″.



and it was only partially fixed in firmware:






QuoteQuote:

The improvement to the "Star Eater" spatial filtering algorithm was made in firmware v4.0 for the Sony A7RII. It is believed it was also implemented in firmware v3.0 for the Sony A7SII but I haven't yet seen any proof.The improvement makes a difference only for the green pixels. The blue and red pixels are affected just as badly as previously. The effect is that more stars survive than previously but these "new" survivors are predominately green in colour.



One of the main weaknesses of consumer directed simplisitic websites such as DXomark and BClaff's blog pages are the poor documentation of the limitations of the chosen analysis/test setup, making them so untrustworthy.
In this case: Both completely close their eyes to / ignore poor camera performance in normal bulb mode for long term exposures.
If you look at their SNR curves, you'll find not even a hint at the massive raw data massaging going on at all ISO levels for long exposures.
Forum: General Photography 01-11-2019, 11:25 AM  
Mirrorless cameras and sensors - the good, the bad and the really ugly
Posted By beholder3
Replies: 32
Views: 4,332
This thread intends to spend a little time to analyze the many issues with sensors for mirrorless cameras and which problems and issues they suffer from - beyond typical DSLR sensor attributes.

Lets start with a discussion about inevitable sensor heat up and following image quality decrease through image noise increase.

Indeed, at least some earlier Sony models were known for not supporting extended video recording as they would shut down due to sensor overheating.

It is documented (The new Sony a7RIII camera still eats stars - Photo Rumors) that even the latest Sonys do eat stars due to their (it seems) constant noise reduction. You could call the Sony behaviour as "accelerator on steroids" as it obviously works all the time and not only from ISO 640 onwards.






QuoteQuote:

The smaller body design/size of the Sony A7RIII (and other A series cameras) results in a higher internal camera heat level which means in general a more aggressive noise reduction is necessary across the ISO range, but particularly important in the high ISO range and during long exposures because the accumulated effect of the activated sensor causes the heat to skew the signal/noise ratio and produces much noisier images. This is much more evident in higher resolution cameras like the A7R II & III because the more intense data processing generates more heat and the electronics of a higher resolution sensor means more dark noise in the signal/noise ratio. In order to resolve that a more aggressive noise reduction had to be applied at ISOs > 3200 which causes pixel level stars to be wiped. Pixel level doesn't mean actual pixel sized stars, the threshold is actually 4 pixels that make up an RGB block of the Bayer array since color info is needed to make noise reduction adjustment, so stars that are ~4 pixels or smaller are at risk of getting removed.
The phase detect AF sensors built into the imaging sensor generate dark noise in the sensor readout, and that is also especially noticeable at ISOs >3200. In addition, even though the PDAF system is not active during the actual capture of a photo, the electronics are passively in a "standby" mode and that generates additional dark noise. Because of this, the PDAF hot spot areas follow a noise reduction algorithm that is different than the rest of the sensor and accounts for that in order to deliver a smooth gradation and even noise pattern.
I was also told that currently because of the hardware limitations there is no way to resolve the issue and that it is not technically an issue at all, it is just a limitation of the hardware. Any fixes that would be applied via firmware would end up exposing the higher noise, which the engineering team determined would be a worse problem for users so it doesn't seem like a proper solution is in the works.



This does explain the suprisingly much inferior level of details you get to see from Sony cameras like the A7R3 when compared to Pentax and Nikon DSLR.

The Sony video overheating issue is still ongoing:
  1. SONY a7 III a73 OVERHEATING issue: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

  2. A7R III Overheat Issue: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

It seems there is no solution available even after years and many model changes.

I dont want to see full res Sony image noise under demanding low light long exposure settings after using video. You probably have to not use the camera for 15 minutes at least before you get back average noise /dynamic range performance from a glowing sensor.

I once measured a K-3 II and I wonder if someone has similar data available from a APSC or FF mirrorless camera.





You just need a camera, some time and an infrared camera to measure the sensor.

Maybe even metadata in the images documents temperature (often with 3rd party cameras it is body temperature thoughm which is much lower than sensor temperature).
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