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Forum: Post Your Photos!
11-03-2011, 06:54 PM
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One may want to call it "frustration" rather than "humiliation" but this has been the PEG's problem from day one: Submitters find it frustratingly hard to get in, even though the reward of getting in wouldn't be very high.
The standard set by the worst shots in the PEG is low. I sympathise with everyone who has a shot rejected that is easily more appealing than the low quality shots in the PEG.
Winning the judges favour would mean something if they were real judges. Judging is hard and requires having achieved a certain level of photography and some judging training on top of that. None of this is guaranteed for the PEG (and shouldn't be expected).
In summary, no one should be frustrated about not getting into the PEG. If someone takes it as a personal challenge and that helps them to improve their photography, that's fine. But whether one has an image in the PEG or not, does not mean anything at all regarding one's ability as a photographer.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
03-24-2011, 02:12 PM
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Why do you want to get further images accepted into the PEG?
There is no prestige; you would have to submit to proper contests with professional judges to be able to claim that an acceptance means something.
Acceptance decisions for the PEG are obviously governed not only by the merit of a photo. Adam said that many submissions raise the standard so it is not just about how good an individual photo is. I don't quite understand this part because Adam also said the PEG was about "beautiful photos to look at" and the latter can be achieved without raising standards when submission numbers rise. If the idea were to get the "best" only then surely one would have to revisit previous acceptances and replace them with newer submissions that exceed them in quality. The "changing the criteria on the fly" approach doesn't make much sense to me. But maybe I'm misunderstanding something.
The PEG has its advantages and disadvantages. People tried to change it before and failed. So if I were you, I wouldn't mind about the rejects. They don't really say a lot about your work and what it should mean to you.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
01-14-2011, 02:05 PM
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Neither do I. It would be a worse shot with a non-oblique horizon, AFAIC.
What I'd do? Not make the shot worse (i.e., change it in a way you don't like) just to get it into a gallery.
BTW, I agree that the image needs to be in portrait mode and I like it this way. If anything, I'd would have liked to see you pan a bit more to the right.
How did you get the shot?
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
09-19-2010, 07:38 AM
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I'm honoured by the offer but I wouldn't be able to deliver on a commitment in the next ~6 weeks.
:cool::)
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
09-18-2010, 06:10 PM
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What will happen if the new judges like yeatzee's bug shots?
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
09-11-2010, 08:29 PM
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That's fine. What I'm criticising is that the criteria are changed mid-game and are not reapplied to what is already in the gallery.
Ask me whether I'm participating or whether I have any inclination to do so. ;)
If we all didn't care about the forum, there would be less arguments, that's right. If suggestions/objections lead to improvements then someone is served. For example, all the submitters who are currently rejected and feel that either getting in shouldn't be harder than it used to be or that every image in the gallery should be held up to the same (subjective) standard.
You perfectly know that the prominence of the PEG makes it a community gallery. That's why people have been arguing towards making it the best community gallery it can be. If it were any odd user's private gallery, we wouldn't have this discussion.
I'm fine if my comments are ignored. I'm offering them in the hope that someone will be able to base improvements on them.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
09-11-2010, 07:27 AM
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If you ask me, that's just plain wrong. This establishes a double standard. If you were early, you could sneak in a shot that wouldn't be accepted anymore today. Where's the fairness in that?- This policy leads to a gallery with quality range that is wider than it could be, and
- it leads to submitter frustration as they see images in the gallery that are worse then their rejects.
I can see why yeatzee is not a happy puppy.
Some of his great shots easily beat some of the images already present in the gallery and rejecting them would only be possible if the lesser images in the gallery were removed too, AFAIC.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
09-07-2010, 10:56 PM
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Which one is it? Some of your macro photography is excellent. I'd be surprised if one of your best ones doesn't make it in.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-26-2010, 04:56 PM
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Are you saying that all the images that are currently in the gallery are "perfect"? I don't want to single out any particular ones but I'd be surprised if you couldn't spot a couple where one would develop doubts as to whether they would make it into the PPG.
No, its a place to show the images that some (unknown) staff with unknown photographic credentials chose to include.
Please consider:
While there are a high number of obviously excellent images there are also some that I'd call average at best. I hope, no I know, that these do not belong to the best this forum could produce.
We don't know what images are rejected and whether or not they are "better" than the ones already in the gallery. Whether an image is better than another is always a subjective judgement. There is no way one could appeal to a global notion of "best".
I'm pretty certain that there are many forum members that don't submit their work for one reason or the other (e.g., maybe they don't like to offer such high-resolution versions of their work, maybe they disagree with the selection process, etc.).
So all the above combined make it pretty obvious that the gallery is not showing the "best of the best of all forum members".
I'm fine with a gallery curated by Adam and staff but it shouldn't be confused with "the best work of forum members".
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-12-2010, 07:46 PM
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Cindy, fantastic image!
I think you should give Falk (falconeye) some reputation points for advertising your craft and for being so helpful w.r.t. your image protection. ;)
Most of the time that isn't true. It is the same when a record label claims they lost Quintillions of dollars because of illegal file sharing.
How many of the people who didn't pay would have used the product if they had to pay for it? A lot less, I'm sure of that.
I fully agree that there shouldn't be unwanted use of anyone's product but the fact that it happens doesn't necessarily imply loss of revenue in each case.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-09-2010, 05:39 AM
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True, but by using more democracy, you could take make your life easier since you wouldn't be the target of criticism anymore.
The new sister forum "mirrorless"'s home page starts with the sentence "We are dedicated to two camera brands: Mirrorless.". Why do I tell you? Because I'm a nice guy.
I like to have fun like everyone else but I don't see the fun in the "exclusive gallery" as it is currently run. If it were my mission to give you a hard time or "really kill the fun sometimes", I wouldn't do such things or other things I've done in an attempt to provide value to the forum.
Too bad that you regard the attempts of some forum members to improve things as "kill the fun sometimes".
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-09-2010, 05:02 AM
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I understand that anyone can become a judge for the PPG. That easily explains why we see mediocre images being accepted. Raise the bar to becoming a voter for the PPG and you've got its only problem sorted (I'm assuming that a sufficiently high number of judged vote on each image to eliminate individual bias).
N.B. I'm not sure that it is "OK" either that the PPG contains mediocre images. I see its primary function as advertising Pentax gear and that function isn't fulfilled with images that are less than breathtaking.
You point to a potential problem with the public voting approach, I agree.
This could be addressed by prominently displaying images to be voted on (e.g., instead of advertising).
If an image receives a lot of vetos early, it could go quickly. If it maintains a positive balance it could stay for a set period and then be either included if it has been very successful or dismissed if it hasn't.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-09-2010, 04:35 AM
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I fully agree that while there are a number of stunning images in the 'Pentax Photo Gallery' thread there are some which some people wouldn't include in their Flickr photostream.
But that's why I included Adam (& Ole?) as the final authority. They only need to accept from the top down what they are prepared to accept. That completely eliminates the problem of the PPG.
Perhaps it could look even better with other rules and I see it as support of my argument that you also see some images that might not warrant "best of the best" status.
I'm also fine with that but it should be named like that.
Your proposal features a transparent process and I'd prefer it to the current one. It might imply the uncoupling of gallery success with the incentives that are currently in place, but I regard that as a good thing.
Your proposal is open to the "popular vote = good images are neglected" criticism. But I a) don't see it as a big problem for a gallery of this type and b) there is no way around this that doesn't involve hard work by a (preferably elected) jury.
I'm in agreement with Falk. If there are too many "top-down" decisions this may lead to an alienation of forum members, i.e., destroy the sense of "belonging to a community". IMHO, it is the latter sense of "belonging to a community" that drives people to make quality contributions. Without the latter, there is not a lot but chatter. (Rhyme provided without charge :)).
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-08-2010, 09:29 PM
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If you have sufficiently many people voting then surely good photos will make it to the top, no?
Is the purpose of the exclusive gallery to give photographers catering to the taste of a minority a forum? I have trouble believing this. I reckon it is to be enjoyed by the majority of people visiting it, hence there would be nothing wrong with it if it contained popular photos.
If the popularity selection is regarded as problematic, I could also envision a selection process where a team of (seasoned/accomplished) photographers sit together and vote on submissions. However, for this to work satisfactorily- the team must not be too small so that personal preference or misjudgement can be eliminated as much as possible.
- the decisions should be made freely without concern about whether or not an individual user reaches 5 or 10 entries. Currently the process can be considered to have an element of conflict of interest.
- ideally submitters should receive feedback as to why a submission was rejected, including a tally how many voted for and against the image.
Probably I've forgotten some further preconditions. Yes, it would be a lot more work to run it like that but I don't see any other way to justify the title "best of the best".
If a decision can be made by one person the gallery will be just that person's favourite image collection with a potential for conflict of interest thrown in. Is that what the community wants to support?
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-08-2010, 03:20 PM
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If you want to aim at high-quality, this won't help. For sure, anything that goes past a few critical eyes will find support among a wide public.
The problem is not to find some support for images that made it in but to ensure that no images stay out that deserved better.
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Forum: Post Your Photos!
08-08-2010, 02:57 PM
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What the "best of the best" images are will always be a subjective statement. One man's best photo is another man's "so what?" photo.
AFAIC, the only way to get round that problem is to include the most popular photos. Why don't we use a public voting system? It could still be at your discretion to either admit the winner(s) of each round to the gallery or to deem them as not worthy enough. You could pick as many images as you liked from the top down. The only restriction would be that you couldn't pick a less popular image while rejecting a more popular one.
This way you could ensure the highest standard possible, but avoid the criticism that the gallery isn't showing the "best of the best" but "the images Adam chose to accept".
The above selection process also would remove any doubt that a submitter will have to compete against themselves more so than against others. After all, you cannot be too liberal with giving away the incentives you offered, right?
One could argue that there isn't a problem, that the current process works, but I see at least one image in the gallery whose allure escapes me and another one that has obvious technical problems. In no way would I want others to imply that images I submitted didn't make the cut against the two examples I'm talking about.
Unfortunately, the only way for me to avoid that implication is to not submit anything at all.
Related to that you might want to reconsider the automatic relegation of images that were submitted but didn't make the cut to a regular gallery. Some submitters may prefer to not have their submissions published at all, if they don't make the cut.
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